Excuse me if this is a repeat, I had problems submitting the comment:

Ms. Dare,

“Instituting a lottery is taking a blunt instrument to this problem ... ”  Agreed.  However, none of your ‘solutions’ work either:

1)  “Paying French-speaking teachers extra”  - I thought we were already overpaid?  Since we are already so highly overpaid, the people that we could attract to the profession with the lure of good money have already been attracted.  The rest stay out of teaching for other reasons (lack of respect, dealing with problem behaviours with no backup, yadda, yadda, yadda)

2)  “Creating other élite programs, for example Chinese immersion…”  I thought the problem as you stated was “... a lack of French-speaking teachers.”  Canada is officially bi-lingual in English and French, not Chinese [sic - Mandarin or Cantonese].  All students in Ontario HAVE to take French, not Chinese [sic - Mandarin or Cantonese] - immersion or core.  Immersion classes do not add significantly to the demand for french teachers since the number of students in immersion are relatively small.  It is the large number of students who must take core French that creates the real demand.

3)  “Working with the Alliance Française and/or Canadian Parents for French to find solutions”  Cool idea, but what will they suggest?  Get more french teachers?  We already know that.

4)  “Using non big-box schools, ...”  Sorry, that’s just plain silly.  The problem is a lack of TEACHERS, not a lack of SPACE.  In fact, with declining enrollment, there is more extra space than ever in our school buildings.

5)  “Improving the experience for all students by offering better service to students with learning problems”  This is a non-sequitor.  Students with learning disabilities do not enroll in French immersion (I assume that there may be one or two exceptions, but not many - nearly all students with learning disabilities usually get an exemption for their French credit and take something else).  That may be the argument that parents use, but it is simply based on fear and prejudice.

“I’m sure you can come up with additional ideas”  I’m sure I can, but you probably wouldn’t like them!

However, here is one ‘solution’:  find the ‘attrition’ rate.  That is: the difference between those teacher-candidates who enter teachers’ college to teach french, and those that actually enter the profession afterwards.  Talk to the candidates that dropped out and find out why they decided against teaching as a career.  Find solutions to those specific issues.

Because of the high pay and benefits - as you people keep criticizing teachers for - the problem is not attracting people to the profession, it is keeping them there.  Because french speakers have so many other career choices, keeping them in the classroom is extremely difficult.

problems submitting? I did too. All day yesterday. Tried several times and there was a duplication because I changed the post slightly then tried again….essentially same message.

French Immersion is starting in Stratford non-Catholic public schools. It used to be only available in our Catholic system.

One question I’d like to answered before I enroll my child is whether achievement levels are higher than that of schools other than Fr. Immersion. If so? I can guess what parents are flocking to these schools.

Also, I believe that there’s an element of competition involved being played out by boards hoping to snag students from the Catholic system. Adding Fr. Immersion is one way to do that.

1)”“Paying French-speaking teachers extra”  - I thought we were already overpaid? “

Please provide proof that Malkin and/SQE has EVER said that on this forum on any other.

To my knowledge French teachers in this province are very well paid. Actually, if I recall correction the cost of French education is vastly more expensive.

2)  “Creating other élite programs, for example Chinese immersion…”  Surprise Wain, Chinese Immersion and other Immersion is already part of the curriculum in some schools in larger urban centres, as are first nation languages in the north.  Why? Because individual school communities demonstrated a need and is giving the community (parents) what it desires in that respect.

You’re saying that French teachers are quitting?  Where did you read this, Wayne?

Not bad ideas, considering all of the problems from French immersion, to gifted to everything in between stems from the structure resulting in systemic problems rising within the public education system model.

“It also uses a lottery for several other popular programs, including its all-girls high school and full-day kindergarten”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/lottery-may-decide-who-gets-into-french-immersion/article4565587/

Lotteries have become quite common, as the tool, where now it has extended into kindergarten. As I found out, it has extended for special needs students. Wow, I thought - what is behind the popularity? Wayne dismisses the suggestions outright, but should he?

“And they conclude:

Efforts to promote French in the ROC should be continued not so much because of the earnings advantage that bilingualism confers but because it results in many social/cultural/political benefits, strengthening the fabric of Canadian society and serving as an example to countries torn by ethnic, religious, and linguistic divisions.

These are fine words. But while we’re strengthening the fabric of Canadian society, there’s a stack of boys, recent immigrants and children with special needs thrown together in English classes. Are we serving them well?”
http://worthwhile.typepad.com/worthwhile_canadian_initi/2010/09/its-like-having-a-private-education-within-the-public-school-system.html

On P4E page - “Can a school refuse to enrol a student? The short answer is ‘yes’, a school can refuse to enrol a student….The situation is slightly different for specialty programs.  Programs such as French Immersion may use a lottery system to select students if there are more families who are interested in the program than spaces available.  Those students who do not get a space in the program may not be allowed to enrol in the school.  Specialty and alternative schools may also use a lottery to determine which students are eligible to enrol.  Some specialty schools may have other requirements, such as an audition process or specific pre-requisites for entry.”
http://www.peopleforeducation.ca/faq/can-a-school-refuse-to-enrol-a-student/

Check out York School Board and its brochure on French Immersion
http://www.ycdsb.ca/frenchimmersion/Brochure-Stouffville.pdf

No wonder it is popular among parents.

At the Vancouver School Board - Lotteries are used.
http://www.vsb.bc.ca/programs/kindergarten-registration-procedures

“So, when just 19 per cent of Grade 2 students in French immersion at Tantallon Elementary School were able to meet reading expectations, it’s perhaps surprising that the school even published the results.”
http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/118258-tantallon-french-immersion-students-post-abominable-grade-2-reading-results

” But if you drop by a Mother Goose singing group or a Waterbabies swim class, you won’t get the poster version of why it’s so popular. “The buzz about it is that it’s private school education for free,” confides Richmond mother Lindsay Peacock.”
http://www.gloriachang.com/printweb/frenchimmersion.htm

The above quote, takes me back to 1996, waterbabies, the tot gymnastic class, play groups and of course the mothers. French immersion, was discussed, among the other hot topic - public schools, Parents enroled their small children as early as possible, to improve cognitive abilities of their children. Although, I did not use the word cognitive, as a parent I just knew the various activities would help in their development. When the health professionals appeared on the scene, regarding, my youngest child’s speech delay, the professionals were very impressed on her cognitive development in other areas that required no verbal speech. It is at this junction, that the conversations that took place with the other mothers, was all about our children, and by extension - formal schooling or another alternative.

Part 2

A 2008 article - “Rethinking immersion
As Ottawa’s public school board phases out ‘late’ immersion
for older entrants, some parents and advocates worry that some students will be left behind.”
http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=a63b697d-81ab-441f-bc89-0e139fcffda8

Interesting data streams. “Of the more than 47,000 elementary students enrolled in the Ottawa board, some 16,000 take French immersion. Of those, 14,302 are enrolled in early immersion at 66 schools, 1,145 in middle immersion at eight schools and 835 are in late immersion at 14 schools.”

34 percent, compared to 2012, about 25 percent. I find it interesting, because there is a shortage in specialized teachers, in all areas in the sciences, the maths, French and other specialized areas. Given the shortage, it acts as a mechanism - the default button - to redirect the flow back to the ordinary academic class, one-sized-fits-all, inclusive classroom, English instruction. Percentage of students taking advance courses, enrichment courses, French immersion, are around 25 percent of the student population. 

Lotteries are used to keep the percentage of students around the 25 percent mark. The maximum, in conjunction by creating a shortage of specialized teachers. In turn, it becomes the mechanism to educate by percentages, to control funding expenditures at each level.

What really bugs me about what Wayne has posted, is in # 5 - ”  “Improving the experience for all students by offering better service to students with learning problems”  This is a non-sequitor.  Students with learning disabilities do not enroll in French immersion (I assume that there may be one or two exceptions, but not many - nearly all students with learning disabilities usually get an exemption for their French credit and take something else).  That may be the argument that parents use, but it is simply based on fear and prejudice.”
So who is being prejudice towards LD students? I can state, its the public education system, holding biases and misconceptions on how children learn. Let alone, the other biases and misconceptions why there is increasing parental demands for specialized programs, across the SES spectrum.

Wayne, parents will always work for the best interests of their children, and their futures. The trouble is, the public education system, does not work for the best interests of the students and their long-term futures. And that my friend, shows everywhere across the SES spectrum, and education outcomes. Tossed in the percentages of grade 12 graduates and directly to post-secondary - Anywhere between 20 to 25 percent go to university, and the vast majority go to college. Too bad, the education ministries do not published the data, let along track students after grade 12 graduation.

In the Globe and Mail comments - “Part of the problem is that French Immersion is increasingly being used by some parents as a ‘creaming’ pathway. Because of the language and behavioural demands of this program, the population of students is relatively motivated and prepared with few behavioural problems.

Many parents are not searching for a bilingual learning experience; instead, they are seeking to avoid the normal public school population for their child. Call it private school with a public school label.”

Perhaps? But it could be for the cognitive development of their children.Anything is better, than the inclusive classroom in a public school….....and just fill in the words that best suit your situation. In my case, it would be watching my child regress, and losing any cognitive benefits/gains from her pre-school to Kindergarten days.

Chuck,

Please read carefully.  Of course there are Cantonese, Gujerati and a whole host of other language programs - I never said otherwise.  However, this is Canada - those students still have to take French and this article is about a shortage of French teachers.  Students often take an international language on top of English and French (which are not international languages),.  So, you could put EVERY student in Ontario in Mandarin - we would still need more French teachers.  The only way to reduce the shortage of French teachers by that standard would be to eliminate the French language requirement out of the graduation diplomas - and that would be political suicide for any party that tried.  So don’t hold your breath.

Bev,

I have mentioned an OTF study before on those that leave the profession.  You will find it here:  http://www.otffeo.on.ca/english/media_room/briefs/why_teachers_leave.pdf.  You will get more information by reading it, however, to summarize:  about 20% of those that leave their teaching positions every year leave the profession entirely (not including retirees).  The OTF study makes no distinction in the subjects taught.  However, by simple deduction, that would include French teachers as easily as any other subject area.  Now, Bev, that’s just the French teachers we already have that leave - what I was referring to were the teachers that never make it to the classroom in the first place.  I can’t seem to find any data on the B.ed attrition rates - that’s why I suggested that someone do a study to find out why these teachers don’t enter the profession after graduation. 

You will now ask, if I can’t find the attrition rates, how do I know that there are any?  Simple math:  there are about 12,000 students that graduate from teacher’s college annually.  In any given year, there are about 4,000 to 5,000 job openings - where do he rest go?  Now, you say - but they’re leaving because there are no jobs.  True, but since there has long been a shortage of French Teachers (Hello parents in Peel - this is nothing new) they are at the tops in the hiring list.  It would be nice to know how many French teachers that were trained in that year (ie: how many out of the 12,000 were French) and how many actually pursued employment.  If there were competently trained French teachers that never sought employment, wouldn’t we like to know why?

Trouble Again!

Chuck,

Please read carefully.  Of course there are Cantonese, Gujerati and a whole host of other language programs - I never said otherwise.  However, this is Canada - those students still have to take French and this article is about a shortage of French teachers.  Students often take an international language on top of English and French (which are not international languages),.  So, you could put EVERY student in Ontario in Mandarin - we would still need more French teachers.  The only way to reduce the shortage of French teachers by that standard would be to eliminate the French language requirement out of the graduation diplomas - and that would be political suicide for any party that tried.  So don’t hold your breath.

Bev,

I have mentioned an OTF study before on those that leave the profession.  You will find it here:  http://www.otffeo.on.ca/english/media_room/briefs/why_teachers_leave.pdf.  You will get more information by reading it, however, to summarize:  about 20% of those that leave their teaching positions every year leave the profession entirely (not including retirees).  The OTF study makes no distinction in the subjects taught.  However, by simple deduction, that would include French teachers as easily as any other subject area.  Now, Bev, that’s just the French teachers we already have that leave - what I was referring to were the teachers that never make it to the classroom in the first place.  I can’t seem to find any data on the B.ed attrition rates - that’s why I suggested that someone do a study to find out why these teachers don’t enter the profession after graduation. 

You will now ask, if I can’t find the attrition rates, how do I know that there are any?  Simple math:  there are about 12,000 students that graduate from teacher’s college annually.  In any given year, there are about 4,000 to 5,000 job openings - where do he rest go?  Now, you say - but they’re leaving because there are no jobs.  True, but since there has long been a shortage of French Teachers (Hello parents in Peel - this is nothing new) they are at the tops in the hiring list.  It would be nice to know how many French teachers that were trained in that year (ie: how many out of the 12,000 were French) and how many actually pursued employment.  If there were competently trained French teachers that never sought employment, wouldn’t we like to know why?

CHOICE NOT CHANCE

Does the state have the moral right to homogenize its population?

What about the concept of diversity and pluralism?  Nature itself defies uniformity — providing the world with an infinite variety of creatures, organisms and materials.  Even in the political sphere we have right and left and opportunity for any ideological group to operate and express views and seek positions of power.

What about the matter of rationing — restricting the opportunities people have to goods and services?  Wouldn’t it be an abomination if the government portioned out the same amount of food for every citizen — big, small, old, young, athletic or whatever?  We would object, wouldn’t we?

Why then should a government interfere in the free choices people make to educate their children?  It’s not as if there is a scarcity — many varieties can be easily accommodated.

Why, when there is pent-up demand for certain schools, such as French Immersion, should there be winners and losers according to government dictate? Or lottery?

Then there is the ticklish question of accommodating religious practices.  Why should a central government be involved? Where are the public policy guides that allow a centralized system to sanction religious observations for some but not for others? Look at what’s happening with increasing demands for prayer rooms?  What’s happened to separation of church and state principles?

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2012/09/20120922-152050.html

If an educated public is important to our civil society surely how we get there should be open to choice, not chance or coercion.

Let the free will of citizens define the character and fabric of society without the heavy hand of central planners and their agents regulating what they think is best for free self-determining citizens?

WAIN

I don’t believe there’s a shortage of French teachers. Why?
Because the two in my family haven’t gotten the memo.

I’m not about to begin believing the statistics from a group with a vested interest in feigning a crisis in French education.

Chuck, if this is the case, then I guess that our public education resists responding to parents’ wants.  Their focus is so far away from doing would be best for children and taxpayers it’s staggering.

Why newly minted teachers don’t enter the K to 12 pubic education system?

“Because one of the quickest lessons teachers-in-training learn is that full-time teaching jobs are tough to find and nowhere tougher than Victoria for just about everyone but French-immersion specialists.”

Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Teaching+grads+face+slim+prospects+crowded+market/4937804/story.html#ixzz27ZwgPAq4

“Last year, 1,861 new education grads were certified by the B.C. College of Teachers, with another 824 out-of-province teachers certified thanks to a new inter-provincial agreement. That means nearly 2,700 new teachers to B.C. when only 1,000 teachers are needed annually to keep up the replacement rate for departing teachers within the 60 public boards, says the B.C. Public School Employers’ Association.”

From Ontario Ministry of Finance - ” As a result of these dynamics, and the relative increase in compensation and benefits, the number of certified teachers in Ontario increased during the past decade. The Ontario College of Teachers (OCT), the province’s regulatory and licensing body, tracks and reports on the labour market for new teachers. According to the OCT, the number of graduates from Ontario-based teacher colleges who became certified teachers grew by over 3,000 per year between 1998–99 and 2009–10, a total increase of 49 per cent (3.7 per cent per year average annual growth).41 The rate of teacher retirement also decreased over this period; the OCT noted that the number of new teachers exceeded the number of retirees by 1,800 per year in the early part of the decade, but this gap has now widened to 7,600 a year.42

Continued growth in the supply of teachers will lead to an inefficient labour market that fails to capitalize on the skills of post-secondary graduates. The proposal to convert B.Ed. programs to two years in length, with enrolment in each cohort halved, offers some prospect of reducing the oversupply of teachers.”
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/reformcommission/chapters/ch6.html

Many other papers and articles where newly minted teachers may enter other fields, other than the K to 12 education system, or in alternative K to 12 education systems, where the newly minted teachers cannot be tracked, as efficiently, as the educators inside the public K to 12 education system.

As, I suggested in my other posts, what appears to be shortages in specialized educators of the French, other languages, the sciences, the maths and technology fields are in fact deliberate plans of rationing by teachers faculties, Rationing the number of specialized teachers, to make room for the over supply of educators with generalized degrees. Do teacher faculties make an effort to recruit university graduates from the sciences, languages, technology and math fields? I don’t think so, since the bulk of graduates with a B.Ed, are generalist educators.

It makes sense, in the data streams and educator job prospects. Full time teaching positions are tough to find for generalist teachers, but not a problem for the specialized teachers. More so for the French educators, where there is high demand for French immersion and as well as other French instruction.

Not enough recruitment efforts on the part of the education faculties,  for all specialization, but more importantly the general trend of reducing the number of required courses in the maths, the sciences and in French at the high school level. In Ontario core French, is mandatory for grade 4 to grade 8. In a typical elementary school, only 1 French teacher is needed, compared to the customary two in other provinces where core French is mandatory for grade 1 to grade 8 or grade 9.

I read a paper, a few years ago ( I just wish I could find it) outlining the deliberate, calculated planning by the educationalists, regarding the supply and demand of teachers. Over supply is the desired goal, but what the educationalists did not anticipate was the number of educators leaving the teaching profession in record numbers under the generalist category, and the high and steady demand of specialized teachers. I wish I could find it, but it was an American paper, that could have easily applied to the Canadian situation.

Only in Canada, the physics teachers who was fired for giving out zeroes, made his appearance on 22 Minutes. The public education system being mocked at and the education policies that are gambling with our children’s lives and their futures. By the way, the Physics teacher was the straight man, truthfully telling his story, and it made for a great comical sketch, at the expense of the crazy policies and practices in the K to 12 schools.

Now, another policy can be added - rationing education services, by lotteries. .