The opposition to the plan, was ready made, when they excluded the community’s day care centres. YMCA day care, in the smaller towns and cities have their waiting lists. It is where you get quality daycare with reasonable prices. Unless the Y has change, they play activities were excellent for the pre-school set.

This was done without thinking, what may work for Toronto, may not work at all in the smaller communities, who always have fewer services and options to chose from. Personally, any daycare would be given to a family member or close family friend, and nursery school for a 1/2 day.

Anyone sitting in a rural setting, can relate to the foolishness of some policies coming from our legislature buildings, and other government departments, where rural residents are left scratching their heads, wondering what the fuss is all about, policies that will do more harm than the benefits the government is cooing about.

Since eduction is not compulsory until grade one in Ontario, the fact that the vast majority will sign up for the public will be an endorsement of the policy as offered. Rest assured that private for profit daycare operators are behind this, but it won’t work. People want a universal government run option which will be clear when the choose it.

There’s very little opportunity for parents to access their share of the funding unless they sign up for the “public” option, right?  Being given only one option in order to receive one’s share of public funding doesn’t leave parents much choice but to do it; that hardly qualifies as a ringing endorsement.

No doubt our resident expert on education would also consider Henry Ford’s classic line that buyers of his cars could choose any colour they like so long as its black as proof positive that people want black cars.  Sad.

The new ELP is part of the Public Education System, just like public schools. Choice is a luxury, a disraction, is inefficient, and does not add anything. We need a universal, open to all free system. You don’t like it lump it. Go private but don’t ask for public money.

Take a deep breath, Doug.

Whether you approve or disapprove of something has very little relevence here; your only “choice” is to make good arguments to support your POV.

You’re dealing with adults now; don’t forget it.

Doug, have you read the links. The day care portion, will be costing parents $35 per day/per child. Boards are not thrilled, nor do they believe there will be a lot of takers at this price. At $700, it is a bit steep when parents have to provide the snacks and other meals. At $35 per day, it will exclude many low-income people, if not all, since low-income will not get a break.

“The shortfall could be even greater if Grand Erie is forced to pay ECE salaries of $24 or more, rates that have been set by other school boards.

“We don’t know where we are going to get half a million dollars,” said Trustee Don Werden. “We are going to have to take money out of other programming to fund this. I don’t think that’s good for kids or good for the system.”

Gunn also told trustees that the board will be forced to charge $35 a day -a much higher fee than that charged by current child-care centres -just to break even on before-and after-school care for its youngest students.

Gunn said the high cost is due mainly to the higher hourly rate for ECEs and that the school board would require two staff members to be in each class.

The ministry has said that before-school care, beginning at 7 a.m., and after-school care, ending at 6 p.m., must be provided by boards of education and not current childcare providers in the community.

But, at $35 a day, most trustees don’t expect too many takers.

“We can go ahead and support it, but no one will sign up,” said Trustee Jane Angus. “For heaven’s sake, let the current providers do it.”

Gunn said the board, “not in the business of chasing down fees,” would be looking for parents to commit to before-and aftercare, likely a month in advance.

Trustee Brian Doyle said that is unrealistic, given the economic situations of many parents.

“Good luck trying to get a month’s fee in advance,” he said. “Don’t stand too close to the phone for sign-ups.”

Gunn said the board is “wholeheartedly supportive” of the early learning program, but only if it’s properly funded.

But, he said the board is “not set up for structured day care.”

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2483905

So Doug, according to you choice is a luxury, and we need a free open universal system. Nothing free at $35 per day. Parents can find cheaper alternatives, or somewhat reduce, from daycare centres or individuals that offer services such as pick-up/drop-off , provide meals/snacks, and other things.

Doug, the latest article from the National Post.
Why reinvent after-school care?

“Other providers of extended day programs share our bewilderment about being shut out, including our local Boys and Girls Club, the Big Brothers and Big Sisters Association and others.”

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/op-ed/reinvent+after+school+care/2775813/story.html

The ELP is proving to be a huge Liberal initiated, union tweaked boondoggle before it’s even off the ground.

It’s not really as much about early learning as it is about teachers and jobs and winning votes.

That it’s not even close to resembling the recommendations of the expert the provincial gov’t hired to advise shouldn’t surprise anyone.

Both the YMCA and OPSBA both have similar concerns with the program that were presented at recently held hearings in Toronto. Check Hansard at the Gov’t of Ontario site for the presentations. There not all as enthused as some would have us believe.

I don’t know what to think yet about this initiative.
Is this initiative
a) about cheaper or free, universal day care
or
b) about a pre-school program proven to work to prepare all the children for school and fill-in any vocabulary and knowledge gaps?

Because so far it it not clear whether or not it is free or not and because I haven’t seen any clear outlines for a program that will help ensure academic readiness I don’t understand what this intiative is about.

The report that triggered this initiative was all about high-quality, academic readiness programs.
I haven’t seen anything outlining how this is going to be achieved.
If somebody knows about such a document, please point me to it, I would be very curious to read it.

My point is, if this program doesn’t have a clear, proven curriculum and direction so that it will fill in the gaps for all the students and increase academic readiness, then what’s the use ?

Chuck, If everybody signs up it will be proof that you are wrong. OISE study says what 70% positive, good enough I think. This may get Dalty reelected by itself.

I parents don’t like it they can look elsewhere. They just won’t get a voucher to take with them.

Interesting idea.

  You may not find the service we provide, and that you pay for, useful or affordable and so you can go elsewhere.  You won’t, however,  be refunded the money you paid for the service, which you find unusable.

I suspect that mindset shows why some people are best suited for jobs on the public payroll; they’d starve to death in the private sector where people aren’t forced to deal with them.

I think it speaks volumes that McGuinty set aside some of the main recommendations in the Pascal Report in favour of ones he can’t clearly justify.

McGuinty rightly sees the downward extension of kindergarten + daycare as a new part of public education. My only complaint is that the childcare component should be totally free and the program should go down one more level to 3 year olds but I can wait.

I could not care less about the private daycare centres that are put out of business by this. This is just like medicare replacing private insurance. You cannot make an omlette if you don’t break some eggs. Boo hoo.

Wake up Doug, and smell the aroma of ‘not enough funding’, for boards and the schools scheduled to be the first ones. Right now, boards need to have a full before and after daycare, just to break even. In order to do it, they need paying parents to pay the extra salaries of the early childhood educators.
A lot of private day care are the non-profit type that are in the smaller cities and towns. Most of their funding comes from the city and town councils. And in a lot of cases, they also provide nursery schools, play schools and other programs.
Another question Doug, why is the Ontario education ministry hiding or not providing what will be happening in the full-day kindergarten. I combed the site, and the only conclusion that can be reached at this moment, that all day kindergarten will be exactly the same as the 1/2 day kindergarten.

Don’t worry Nancy it will all work out.

There’s lots of funding in the education sector. 

The problem is that enormous amounts of it are spent covering all of the sacred cows that have developed over time; there’s little or no room to move funds around to meet changing needs.

Doug, I do not think the goverment is willing to provide the extra funding to the tune of $500,000 +, to each board, to cover the increase expenses related to ELP. Boards are going to be force, to raid other school program funding, to pay for ELP in their school.

One rule, that was set up and insisted by the top brass of the union, that daycare must be in-house, and local community providers were not allow inside the schools.

The policy was designed with purpose, in the event ELP failed in any one school or a number of schools, the blame factor would rest on the boards, and not where it should be, at the ministry’s door step and the teachers’ unions. Easily done, when boards are not very open and tranparent on the operations and expenditures of their schools.

No doubt, the boards will raid the art supplies, music programs, the general student programs, and their favourite, special education resources, and asked the parent councils to fundraise what has been cut.  Some boards will go that route, but there is other boards that cannot go that route, they don’t have the room anymore to cut back, nor the parent population to support fundraising at a large scale.

Nancy it sounds like you wnt the program to fail. It will be fine. It is going to happen no matter what you say so lets just wait and see. One thing is for sure, it will be so well established that in the event of an unlikely but possible Tim Hudak victory, it wil be impossible for him to eliminate.

ELP is an important program and concept, that should have arrived years earlier in Ontario, and for that matter in Canada. 

All I have done, is to point out funding shortages, that will sabotaged the ELP from the get-go. Add the latest demand from the teachers’ union, regarding class sizes for the ELP, and if the teachers’ union get their wish to reduce class size, it would mean additional expenses for the board, plus for some schools, they would have to build additions to their schools, to accommodate the increase ELP classes. Or go back to the use of portables for the older children.

It sounds to me, that once again governments are using children, to gain political points, by putting the cart before the horse. By not laying the foundation properly, the ELP program is resting on a very shaky foundation.

John,

Ontario spends the least on education per capita in Canada except the poor Atlantic provinces. Have-not Manitoba spends almost 10% more. We would need to spend $2 billion more per year to move close to first place. Newfoundland is right behind Ontario and about to pass us in education spending. What a disgrace.

You do understand that “spending per capits”, in itself, is meaningless, right?

You’ve been advised, repeatedly, that cherrypicking numbers from research is intellectually sloppy.  You claim to have several university degrees; time to step up the quality of your contributions here to reflect that.  You’re not teaching high school anymore.

Speding on education per student is the critical number in education. It shows what you know.

Doug you stated, “Ontario spends the least on education per capita in Canada except the poor Atlantic provinces. Have-not Manitoba spends almost 10% more. We would need to spend $2 billion more per year to move close to first place. Newfoundland is right behind Ontario and about to pass us in education spending. What a disgrace.”

Than in your last post you used per student. Using per capita figures, are useful to make comparisons in certain situations. Depending on the measures used, based on population in education can be tricky, since each provinces have their own unique set of data, with population being the key.

Ontario is only dropping, because of declining enrollment in the per capita calculations. NL is spending more in education, due to spending more on teachers and a slight increase in student population.

Not very useful when you do not include the data to making the claim that NL will spend more than Ontario. I have a feeling, that you are using other data, such as the GDP, to do the comparison. If so, of course NL would than surpassed Ontario when it comes to education expenditures, due to oil revenues. The more useful figure, is per student, depending on what measures are used, and how each one is weighted, so the comparison becomes useful.

Make up your mind!

  “Per capita” and “per students” are NOT the same thing.

In another area you claim that “experts” use per capita. and here you say “per student” is “key”. 

Consistency is a good thing (and sort of expected).

Is that really the best you can do to muster an argument John. Of course they are not the same thing but they are often used interchangebly in education because we deal with student populations only.

Consistency is the hobgoblin of the small mind. You have heard that one right John.

Doug, per student and per capita cannot be used interchangeably. Per capita formula is a specific calculation to make a comparison. Per student is just an average using measurements that affect student funding, such as teachers salaries or transportation, and than that figure is divided into total education spending, or the total sum of the measurements. Only a shifty politician uses per capita,  to make an issue appear bigger than what it seems, or the opposite, making it a minor issue. And than again, it is more often used declaring good news.

By using per capita figures, it certainly does appear that Ontario is spending less on education. But with the biggest student population, the advantages Ontario has, many other provinces do not have. Just like the school district in NL, has about a circular diameter of 400 kms. with about 70,000 students, and a lot of empty land in between the communities, the school district are faced with different problems compared to Ontario. Ergo, in some ways expenditures such as transportation, long with rising fuel prices have increased education expenses, over the last 10 years.

For heaven’s sake Ontario is VERY BAD in the Canadian context in PER PUPIL funding. Only the Atlantic provinces are lower and N & L has almost caught up.

BC, Alberta, Sask, Man, PQ, all spend more ON EACH STUDENT than Ontario.

What is the size of the student population in Ontario?  Ontario has the biggest student population, where the majority is living in Southern Ontario, in a smaller geographical area, and densely populated. Ontario has the advantage of providing services, at a cheaper cost due to where the majority of the population lives. The other provinces do not have that advantage, except in their cities. Once outside the cities, costs go up, because the communities are smaller and further apart from each other. There is other factors to consider, like the number of school boards where many provinces have reduced them. If so, there is costs associated at the board level, to operate regional offices, so board staff can serve schools within a 100 to 150 km distance.

You should get out to the other provinces and see for yourself. Each province is dealing with their own unique set of disadvantages and advantages. Come down to my area, and I show you a school library that consists of two shelfs. After your tour, you be some glad to get back to Southern Ontario, where per student or per capita are relative figures, and should not be taken as the whole truth.

Big cities also have their costs Nancy, ESL costs, costs of compensatory education, etc. TDSB probably has the greatest costs in Ontario because of what they must do.

The Ontario student population is slightly above 1.9 million and declining.  If you want to know the costs per student for any board in Ontario go to our Sunshine on Schools Ontario site http://www.sunshineonschools.ca for details.

The new updates for 2009 will be there soon!

An audit done of the TDSB done some years ago indicated all sorts of spending “issues”, eg, high absenteeism, so unless those problems have been resolved there’s no reason to think additional funding would result in better outcomes.  If management isn’t doing a good job dumping more money in is only covering up failure to perform.

Ontario is very much in the middle of the pack in terms of per pupil funding; the range is plus/minus a few hundred dollars from the top to the bottom of the comparators, hardly a sign of Ontario being way behind.

If it wasn’t for the actual numbers proving the contrary the claim that Ontario is “VERY BAD” could actually be true…

The numbers on this site are out of date. The numbers on my site are more recent. So I guess if it doesn’t make any difference to you that Manitoba spends 10% more we might just as well be first John and spend the extra $2 billion that 10% represents. ELP more than covered.

I for one am horrified that only the Atlantic provinces spend less than Ontario and Nfld will soon pass us.

A request.

  Would you please start using proper grammar and punctuation.  It makes your contributions easier to read and understand. 

Thanks

Doug the Atlantic provinces includes NL. If you mean the three Maritime provinces, than say so. Using Maritimes, is the 3 without NL. Atlantic is the 4 east coast provinces.

And Doug, regardless where one is in Canada, by looking at costs per student, in the way you are doing, you are not taking other considerations into account. The costs are higher in NL because of the extreme centralization, and thinly sparse communities over a large geographic area.

Centralization rarely save money in rural areas, as opposed to the Toronto area. That is why, it takes a year to get a simple reading assessment done by the psychologist educator in rural concerns, and about 3 months in a populated urban area.

Nancy, I am well aware of the difference between Atlantic provinces and Maritimes. Tht is why I said Atlantic provinces and that is what I meant.

John,

Have you noticed every time you lose an argument you go to spelling and grammar? Is that garduates or graduates?

Doug, that is calling the kettle black concerning spelling errors. You have been guilty on spelling errors, as much as others.
Here is a handy app, called iespell. Best free, and simple spell check. Check it out,
http://www.iespell.com/download.php

Doug you did not make that clear in concise english. In one sentence, the Atlantic provinces are below Ontario, and in the next one, NL will soon pass us. Very confusing, and your point made on NL, was diluted, leaving the reader to question which is it, is NL below or is it not.

This is a site dedicated to advancing the quality of education so it seems reasonable to expect a certain regard for spelling, grammar and puctuation, right?

As a retired teacher, with multiple degrees, it should be a nobrainer to aspire to very few spelling, grammar or punctuation oversights.

As far as me “going to spelling and grammar” I don’t see much room to argue that their proper use is a good idea.  Not using them appropriately isn’t really something to aspire to.