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Society for Quality Education

Scaling the ladder of success

February 24, 2012 by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) at 09:35 AM

I am currently reading A Chance to Make History: What works and what doesn't in providing an excellent education for all by Wendy Kopp, the founder of Teach for America. I am finding this book tremendously heartening because Ms Kopp thinks that great strides are being made in terms of ensuring that all children have access to an equal education. Here are some excerpts on this topic (pp 3-8).

Twenty years ago, the prevailing assumption in most policy circles was that socioeconomic circumstances determined educational outcomes. We had not found a way to provide children growing up in poverty an education that overcame its effects on any significant scale, and many assumed that fixing education would require fixing poverty first.

During my senior year in college, a hit movie, Stand and Deliver, made a national hero of Jaime Escalante, a teacher in East Los Angeles who coached a class of students to pass the AP Calculus exam. At the time, it seemed stunning that a teacher could get kids in a high-poverty community to excel at that level - so stunning that the Educational Testing Service questioned the validity of the test results of Escalante's students, creating the drama that attracted the attention of Hollywood. Movie audiences around the country were moved by the depiction of a charismatic and heroic teacher who could miraculously beat the odds with his students. We saw Escalante as an outlier - not as an example that could be widely replicated....

In the early 1990s, there were in fact a small number of widely-heralded examples of schools that changed the trajectories of children growing up in poverty. One of the most acclaimed was Marva Collins's Westside Preparatory School in Chicago, which she founded as a private school in 1975, initially to educate her own children and their neighborhood friends. the school's results were extraordinary - its students, including those who had been labeled as learning disabled by their previous schools, excelled academically, and many went on to attend the nation's finest universities. Yet while a handful of schools like Westside Prep were changing the lives of their students, the working assumption at the time seemed to be that if the school leaders left, the success would not continue. Indeed, in the case of Westside Prep, the school ultimately closed its doors in June 2008, citing enrollment and funding challenges....

Twenty years ago, we had a few visible examples of classrooms and schools in low-income communities that were changing the trajectories of children. Today, there are too many to count. In the Teach For America network alone, there are hundreds of teachers who, even in their first and second years of teaching, are proving it is possible for economically disadvantaged children to compete academically with their higher-income peers. Moreover, today dozens of communities also have growing numbers of schools that are putting whole buildings full of students on much more promising paths, year after year....

In fact, in dozens of communities around the country, there are growing numbers of classrooms and growing numbers of schools that are demonstrating that we don't need to wait to fix poverty in order to ensure that all children receive an excellent education. We can partner with children and their families, in a way that is replicable, to provide an education that changes their likely paths - an education that is transformational.

Although there is certainly much more to be understood about how to provide urban and rural children with opportunities that will put them on a path to college and life success, today we do know that it is possible to provide children growing up in poverty with an education that transforms their academic outcomes and, in turn, life options. And we can describe what it takes. Unlike twenty years ago, the question today is not whether success is possible but instead whether success is 'scalable'. Can we develop entire school programs that provide educaitonal opportunty for all students?

Even to this question, there is growing evidence that it is possible to realize significant progress. Just seven or eight years ago, New York City, Washington, DC, and New Orleans were on virtually everyone's list of exterme microcosms of our failure to provide chidren with the opportunities they need and deserve. Todya, while the school districts in these cities have a long way to go, each has shown that it is in fact possible to scale the success we are seeing in some classrooms and schools.

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Comments

There was ONE Jamie Escalente and he could not duplicate his success.

This is like the coarch that says “give me 20 Sydney Crosbys and I can win the cup.” There is one. One of America’s biggest problems is the “star system”. It is the competent journeymen/women that move things along. Wendy Kopp is usually wrong about almost everything and not taken all that seriously outside the Corporate Reform Movement.

Posted by Doug on 02/24 at 01:37 PM

.......and not to be out done and waiting with baited breath for the next new education thread issued on any blog anywhere on the Internet, the “coarch” is in with the first comment even though it does nothing to enhance discussion or come close to anything but a knee jerk reaction against SQE.

It’s Groundhog Day every day.

Posted by Chuck on 02/24 at 02:36 PM

So what you just stated Doug, no point in educating children, until everything is fixed in society, because there is nothing wrong with teachers, the training, and the other education policies that loves to play war at the expense of the students.

I sure wish there was a few star teachers, that actually knows that phonemic awareness, word decoding are essential to read and write with ease. Teachers like that, would be considered star teachers to the parents . Perhaps not to their follow teachers, but stars in the eyes of the parents.

My child at 8 years old in phonemic awareness at a standard score of 59. At 16, at a standard score of 73. The average is 85 and above. A star teacher, would have corrected the deficit back in the primary grades, rather than tell parents that it cannot be corrected, and than proceed to labelled the child, like they did with Jaime Escalante’s students back in the early grades.

The trouble is the attitude within the education system, and the inability to see all successes, whether in the classroom or the individual students as scalable.

In both cases, teachers with deep knowledge and masters at what they do, is the answer. And the attitude of blaming it on the SEC factors must be abolished.

Posted by Nancy on 02/24 at 06:37 PM

Nancy is mostly right on this.
A wide range is research studies (hundreds involving millions of children in dozens of countries)
clearly show to me that the achievement gaps can be considerably lessoned and even eliminated entirely.
Yes SES counts, but so does good teaching.
We must a better job of supporting the poor
AND
improving teaching.
It is not, and never has been either/or.

In doing the right thing in schools we need to
be better at understanding the complexities and power and limits of research
and separate it from ideology as much as possible (impossible in some cases because values about what SHOULD be do count).

A short list of useful directions based on massive research
- direct instruction counts for many things
- direct instruction does not count for all things
- teacher passion counts
- quality feedback counts
- grade retention does not work and is equivalent to malpractice
- having students do structured inquiry (not “discovery” learning) in which they use what they know and can do to generate and test hypotheses counts
- purposeful task in small groups in which there is a common goal and which all members contribute counts
- practice counts

This is my starting list
designed to get the best bang for the buck, not a complete list.

Posted by John Myers on 02/25 at 08:25 AM

I would not have dedicated my adult life to education if I did not think it could make a difference. Nancy you are in denial of the overwhelming SES research because it does not fit you anecdotal family experience and pet (but incorrect) theory.

Of course schools help. It would be far better if class size in poor schools was far lower than middle class areas. I would be far better if ELP was rolled out first to the poor and maybe later to the MC.

But if we are waiting for real breakthroughs in education, poverty must be eliminated first. This is the primary reason Finland soars. Look at Alberta. It is the booming economy and low poverty level that makes it our best province not a tiny sprinkle of charters.

Posted by Doug on 02/25 at 08:26 AM

There are two points that I’d like to make.

First, Nancy I agree with you, with the appropriate type of work early deficiencies can be corrected to a great degree.

The only caveat for me is not a star teacher, a competent teacher. If your job is to teach primary grades when students learn to read then obviously you have to know how teach reading.

What we have come to consider exceptional teachers or star teachers in North America ( especially in elementary grades, high school seems to be different from what I see so far) are nothing but competent teachers anywhere else in the world.
If its your job to teach why do we consider it somewhat of a miracle that you can do it very well?

I’m telling you, nobody at my workplace is in awe of me knowing how to write software programs and being able to understand complex technical issues; it’s my job.
If I’m not able to do it well enough I’ll probably be out the door if not right away then at the next reorg a year or two down the line.

Second, there are no silver bullets. Jamie Escalante is presented like some sort of magician able to transform students overnight. Nothing can be further from the truth.
If you read the book, it took him a few years to reach that level of success because in order for the students so far behind to catch up they needed a few years of solid training. If you read the book he established feeder programs for younger student, run by people similar to him in order to reach that high rate of success for everybody in the program.

Each student that was successfull became successfull by 3-4 years of solid catch-up work and not by magical contagion of having Jamie as a teacher.

His program was destroyed by the education system who destroyed his feeder programs and who started puting all sort of limits and constraints to what he was doing; things such as not allowing him to have the students in school on Saturdays.

Posted by fromEurope on 02/25 at 10:24 AM

Bwahahahahah Chuck, that was the funniest thing I have read for a long time.  My wife and I are in stitches over your assessment of the “coarch” and his antics. For now, my name is changing to laughing-my-guts-out-teacher!

Thank you!

Posted by (formally) madteacher on 02/25 at 01:45 PM

Well Doug, the local high school teachers would side with John, and frown upon the SEC factors as being the only factors that decides achievement. Plus the local high school would add to John’s list, of a structured school environment, with high expectations.

Why don’t you come down to NL, and put your poverty theory to good use, but first plenty to choose from;  try to locate a school where low income is the deciding factor in achievement. Teachers can do a lot, if they are allowed to do so without fear of losing his or her job.

As John has stated, we must do a better job of supporting the low-income, and as well as the other sub-groups of students, the collective whole. Teachers play the greatest role, and that is if they are allow to get on with it.

“His program was destroyed by the education system who destroyed his feeder programs and who started puting all sort of limits and constraints to what he was doing; things such as not allowing him to have the students in school on Saturday.”

Posted by Nancy on 02/25 at 01:49 PM

Nancy makes a lot of sense here,
“The trouble is the attitude within the education system, and the inability to see all successes, whether in the classroom or the individual students as scalable.

In both cases, teachers with deep knowledge and masters at what they do, is the answer. And the attitude of blaming it on the SEC factors must be abolished.”

I would rather my children attend a school within a system that actually BELIEVES in all students “Scaling the ladder of success” than one that continually makes excuses, depending on the flavour of the month, year or decade.

Posted by Dan Sing on 02/25 at 01:49 PM

Doug,

You said, “But if we are waiting for real breakthroughs in education, poverty must be eliminated first. This is the primary reason Finland soars. Look at Alberta. It is the booming economy and low poverty level that makes it our best province not a tiny sprinkle of charters.”  There’s that good old Finland again.  But be careful, have you read your latest Update yet? 

(For the General reader:  Update is the title of the monthly OSSTF newsletter - it can be accessed here:  http://update.dgtlpub.com/2012/2012-02-21/home.php  You .will want to flip ahead to page 10)

There is an article about an OECD study of the top 10 countries that send students to post-secondary education.  #10??? Finland - only sends 37% of its population to post-secondary (mind you, mainly science, engineering, etc) ... and who might be #1??? Canada - 50% of our population goes on to tertiary education.

Oddly enough, Doug, the article admits that this high rate is despite the fact that (unlike Finland) 25% of our population are immigrants.  You know those people don’t you?  Those lowly, disadvantaged, low SES people that need a hand up?  Seems like our system is doing just fine helping them out.  SES is THE factor you said - seems not.

Mind you, this is not necessarily good news for SQE either.  The article also mentions that some of our success comes from the fact that we spend about 2.5% of GDP on education.  So, perhaps we are getting ‘more bang for our buck’ than we thought.

Posted by Wayne Scott Ng on 02/25 at 02:04 PM

I should have added
high expectations
to my starters list.

One interesting example from Ontario is the use of rubrics.
Rubrics, called achievement scales decades ago when i used them from writing assessment, can be a great tool to show students
- how well they did (in specific, clear language)
- what they need to do to improve
Good rubrics start from left to write
or
top to bottom
with the highest level possible
to give students a high target to aim for.

Too many rubrics in Ontario are copies of the provincial achievement charts of student performance. While these charts are useful for summaries and their categories go beyond simple fact recall, their vague language
“limited effectiveness”, “some understanding”, a “high degree of clarity”
tell students nothing.
Furthermore by starting at the lowest passing level they do not encourage sustained effort. but allow some students to stop at enough to get a pass.

While not all students can get As, I want all students to work hard to do the best they can.

Posted by John Myers on 02/25 at 02:15 PM

I have been saying for many many years that Canada graduates more people from post secondary than any nation on Earth.All I have been saying about Finland is that their 15 year olds are the world’s best readers.

Canada the last time I looked, however was #4 in university enrolement / capita bhind USA, Ireland and Japan.

It is not low SES immigrants that are going to university it is high SES immigrants.

Immigrants are a strange case. Many appear to be poor in Canada because they have been forced to leave a lot behind and start over again in Canada (or USA or other)  the critical factor is what they did back in the homeland.

Latin Americans are an excellent case study. Immigrants from Chile do far better in canadian schools because, for historical reasons, (overthrow of Allende) the immigrants from Chile were teachers journalists professors lawyers etc in Chile. Immigrants from El Salvadore and similar were peasants back home and have a great deal of difficulty here.

The “Iron Law” of SES ALWAYS applies but sometimes it is not on the surface.

Critical analysis by social scientists around he world duplicate the very same results SES is THE critical factor. It is not the only factor but it is by far the greatest single factor. Estimates usually range 66-80% deterministic.

Can a poor kid survive the system and get a PhD? Of course, is it likely, no it is not likely.

Are you a math gut Wayne? I think we all understand probability.

You are much more likely to be dealt a pair in 5 cards than 4 of kind.

There is a very low probability of poor kids surviving our education system than a middle class kid.

I think when some people look at SES they think it means poverty. They strongly overlap but they are not the same thing. A judge ranks far higher than a lawyer that makes far more money.

A church minister, priest of Rabbi ranks far higher than an electrician that may enjoy a higher income. There is a social as well as an economic component to SES.

Thanks for pointing out that Canada is the world’s best at post secondary.

Posted by Doug on 02/25 at 02:31 PM

“While not all students can get As, I want all students to work hard to do the best they can.”

“I would rather my children attend a school within a system that actually BELIEVES in all students “

I think most parents, no matter their income would like their children to be seen in the terms above, compared to the terms of what is described in Doug’s post. The odds of completing 12 years of schooling within 12 years, and off to post secondary.without a hitch using the odds of receiving a pair or 4 of a kind in 5 cards, is not very comforting for parents.

However, Doug should know better not to used the poker hand analogy, when the information can be easily had, with a few key strokes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_poker_hands

A lot can be read into Doug’s comments, and the odds. But it is rather fitting for the students who have reading and writing deficits, that were never corrected in grade school.

And Wayne, what is often forgotten, is the cost of access to post-secondary. Perhaps an over riding influence concerning Canada’s top position, is the lower costs of tuition, living expenses compared to England and other countries that charges twice as much as Canadian post-secondary institutions and their living expenses are quite high for food, shelter and transportation. Tuition is high enough in Canada, but over in merry Old England, it is now $16,000 for university. I shuddered to think what the tuition is for the college level,

As for Doug’s iron law of SES, can he go back to see how the education establishment divvy up the class breakdown of the Europeans of the different ethnic backgrounds.  Reminds me, of a kind of discrimination seen when I was growing up, based on someone else’s middle-class morals. No matter what I could not change my Irish-Scots roots, nor my German roots that would suit the aristocratic elitism of those who wanted us to behave more like them including holding the same moral values as they held. We failed them each and every time, and at the very least, disappointed them when we fail to behave accordingly to their low expectations of us.

Lots of literature on the web Doug, and how the expectations and biases of others, can influence thinking in education policies and practices, based on white middle-class values. But back in my day, it was more specific, compared to today. Yesterday, I read interesting literature provided by the federal government to newly arrived immigrants, and the topic was all about the middle-class values throughout our society, and the implications being new in a society, with English as a second language. Good solid advice, without requesting the immigrants to dropped their cultures and values to become a contributing citizen in Canada.

As well Doug, if you would like to go further than poor immigrants. Look over the studies and see who is really behind the 8th ball?  The native born Canadians or the immigrants? 

My point is, shouldn’t the public education system remain neutral, and treat all students no matter who they are that are students can learn no matter the obstacles and that the students should make steady progress by working hard to be the best they can be?

Posted by Nancy on 02/25 at 04:16 PM

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Posted by Doug on 02/25 at 04:51 PM

Doug,

“Are you a math gut Wayne”  Doug, I usually find you get ‘testy’ when you are losing.  Your point, as often, is irrelevant.  Never mind that immigrant families graduate MORE children per capita from university - in your ‘little’ world immigrants are hard done by.  Never mind that aboriginals in Canada send more students to college than non-immigrants (55% of aboriginals vs 39% of non-immigrants).  That would be another group you claim are failing due to low SES.

None of this is news, Doug.  These percentages are from a Canadian Council on Learning study done back in 2009.  Where have you been?

Posted by Wayne Scott Ng on 02/25 at 06:24 PM

Wayne get with it, we have 2 kinds of immigrants of course, rich ones and poor ones. The poor ones ought not to be looked at as poor if they are only poor in Canada but by their home country standards. The proverbial “Cab driver with a PhD” from India is not low SES. Their kid doing well in school is expected as opposed to those from long term poverty.

Show me a link that has 39% of Aboriginals in college.

Posted by Doug on 02/25 at 06:51 PM

Doug said:

But if we are waiting for real breakthroughs in education, poverty must be eliminated first. This is the primary reason Finland soars. Look at Alberta. It is the booming economy and low poverty level that makes it our best province not a tiny sprinkle of charters.

This is the most ridiculous statement on this thread.A good,effective education is the way out of poverty.
Thanks Doug for the usual.

Posted by Jo-Anne Gross on 02/25 at 06:56 PM

http://www.ccl-cca.ca/CCL/Reports/PostSecondaryEducation/Archives2008/PSE2009KeyFindings.html

You might think so Jo Anne but in actual fact, people seldom make it out of poverty through education. They make it out of poverty with a good well paid job, then their kids get an education.

You are allowed to use the words “ridiculous statement” Jo Anne, I am not. If I used it it would be seen as confrontational and outside of the guidelines.

What you usually find Jo Anne is that what appears “obvious” to reformers is, in fact incorrect.

How was the black middle class in America created? People moved up north from Mississipi, Alabama etc. They got good jobs in Detroit as autoworkers and Pittsburge as steelworkers. This allowed them to move out of the ghetto and into modest single family homes. Their kids were the first to go to college in large numbers. As you can see the intergenerational progress was in this order, end poverty first educational success second.

This is how life works. Don’t look at individual stories, look at the overall. You are missing the patterns.

Posted by Doug on 02/25 at 07:12 PM

Wayne writes, “Never mind that aboriginals in Canada send more students to college than non-immigrants (55% of aboriginals vs 39% of non-immigrants).  That would be another group you claim are failing due to low SES.”

Doug, how do you mange to state that it is a 39 percent for Aboriginals?  I took non-immigrants as native born Canadians who are not Aboriginals

Quite the stats to ponder on, and I had no idea of the wide gaps for the non-immigrants. I knew there were differences, but not on this scale.

Now I have a question, on what are the graduating rates and moving into post-secondary of non-immigrants moving from one province to another province, given that there is biases and misconceptions of students coming from different regions of Canada?

One just has to live in NL, to know the biases of the mainlanders, and everyone in Ontario thought I lost a few marbles moving to NL, for a better quality life, minus the crime and fresh sea air. And now the Ontarians complain I speak to fast, and tell me to speak like an Ontarian.

Just wondering, some provinces do a better job than others, but of course I am basing it on parents who have either move out of the province, or coming back to the province with their children in tow. The only province that gets a 5 star rating from NL parents is the Alberta’s education system.

..

Posted by Nancy on 02/25 at 07:22 PM

Doug,

My father was a mason with a grade 8 education, not a cabbie with a PHD.  Yet I managed to get to university.  I only have an MA - I suppose that isn’t good enough for you.

BTW Doug, despite his lack of formal education, my father was an extremely intelligent man.  I never heard him spout as many stupid statements in his entire life as you have done on this thread alone.

Posted by Wayne Scott Ng on 02/25 at 08:12 PM

Doug,

I never said 39% of aboriginals went to college, I said, “55% of aboriginals vs 39% of non-immigrants”.  I also said it was from “Canadian Council on Learning study done back in 2009”.  You’re a rich, intelligent non-immigrant, find it yourself.

Posted by Wayne Scott Ng on 02/25 at 08:16 PM

Read the study, none of that is in there Wayne.

BTW anecdotal is of no interest to anyone. My father was a printer my mother was a secretary, nobody is interested because individual stories count for nothing.

Everybody knows there are individual students who get out of poverty. That is hardly the point. There are individual smokers who live to 100. Does that mean smoking is not dangerous to your health? Don’t be ridiculous.

The constnt denial of the critical role of SES on here is incredible. Read some research. It is overwhelming. Start with Coleman and carry on up to David Berliner.

The more you press for standardized testing, the more you prove that SES is THE critical factor.

Anyone who denies the central position of SES is achievement results is a fool.

Posted by Doug on 02/25 at 09:11 PM

http://www.usca.edu/essays/vol72003/stockton.pdf

Posted by Doug on 02/25 at 09:18 PM

Preventing Reading Failure-Reid Lyon-look it up-and if you can read,spell and write you can access an education and climb out of the hole.
You want to keep them there,they`re poor so they`re stuck and it`s why I can`t succeed with 46% of my students in Grade 3-TDSB-EQAO scores.

We have so many inner city kids.

Try teaching them according to the NICHD recommendations.You read about excuses,I read about how to do better.

Also with the higher grad rates,bullocks.
It`s only higher because ANYONE passers and nobody fails.
See how long they last at University.

Posted by Jo-Anne Gross on 02/26 at 07:21 AM

Thanks Doug,

Here’s some anecdotal for you:

When I was 5, the ‘Welcome Wagon’ lady used to come by our house every month with a care package to ‘help us out’. Our family had already lived in Canada for 10 years at that point.  My father already owned his own construction company, six apartments as well as our own home.

There are some people that, even though they mean to do well, can’t help but make you feel like a foreigner.  You remind me of her.

Posted by Wayne Scott Ng on 02/26 at 07:52 AM

Overall patterns Doug?  One of the major problems by looking at overall patterns, are the statistical guys, imprinting their values which are often upper middle-class values and experiences, to where they can only imagine, because they have not personally experience it.

Yikes, imagine living in a home without 50 books is an example, is one such item, I’ve still not found the reasoning ,  why 50 books or more is the magic number, but I am sure it be imprinted with all sorts of upper middle-class values. I know it is all in the interpretations, but also be aware of values and experiences. and how they are imprinted unto the interpretations of numbers, that stemmed from a whole host of variables and factors.

Nice little tale of the black middle class, is just that a tale. But more so, in your statement, ” In actual fact, people seldom make it out of poverty through education. They make it out of poverty with a good well paid job, then their kids get an education.” 

There is so many things wrong with the statement, but it is as elitist with the attached snobbery as it can get. Simplistic thinking, in a world that has grown complex and constantly changing in dynamics from the good old days of the 50s and 60s.

But there is some things that have not change since ancient times, a good effective education, that enables the individual to protect and advance their best interests. And not the kind, that requires a bunch of letters behind one’s name or many years of studying for degrees. But the kind that instils having the skills and abilities to be able to manipulate the knowledge in the 21st century to their advantage. It starts with acquiring good reading, writing and numeracy skills, that is the foundation for the skills and abilities, and in the end to access and manipulate knowledge.

Is an education all about acquiring a job at the end?  Not in my mind, but an effective education as Joanne puts it, enables the individual to increase the quality of life that they are experiencing, by using the resources that are near and at hand. In this topsy-turvy world, handy to have, no matter the status ranking of social-income line. An effective education for all, would be a start and an end to the non-stop talking of SEC factors as being the main cause for failure to progress and achieve.

The statement of Doug, “BTW anecdotal is of no interest to anyone. My father was a printer my
mother was a secretary, nobody is interested because individual stories
count for nothing.”

Speaks volumes on the advocates and believers of SEC factors and their mind set. Everyone becomes outliers, a fluke, perhaps the students cheat, or had parents who work the system, or an exception. I am beginning to understand the term paternalism elitism and it is prevalent in the mindsets of the believers of SEC factors being the critical role, if one receives an education or not. Paternalism elitism is what is being defended, to where education is handed out in measures of the SEC factors, and knowledge according to a cook-book recipe of one-sized-fits-all depending on SEC factors.

Below an article, entitled Will the Real Elitist Please Stand Up.

“All that is required for its cultivation is a form of teaching that is dedicated to nourishing the higher aspects of children?s inborn natures?all children?s, everywhere. A form of education that is non-relativistic and non-patronizing.

El Sistema is all of these things.

It is neither ?Tory? nor ?upper-crust? to dedicate oneself to greatness, whether in music education, in the other arts, or in the curriculum generally, because every human spirit is naturally responsive to the good, the true, and the beautiful. Such responsiveness is a universal property of our amphibious species.

Advocacy on behalf of the noble and the uplifting is not elitist.”
http://www.thebestschools.org/bestschoolsblog/2012/02/16/real-elitist-stand-up/

Neither is believing that all students can learn, no matter the obstacles, the deficits, or the SEC factors. Does it not boil down to the teacher in front of the class?  It is obvious that the low-income students are thriving in the musical program, El Sistema, and yet the Dougs of the world would call it elitist, just like they would call it elitist when a solid foundation of the 3 Rs is the road to an effective education.

Posted by Nancy on 02/26 at 08:36 AM

Jo anne without your help Canada has more people graduate from post secondary than any nation on Earth.

We don’t need your help it seems, poverty is the issue.

Posted by Doug on 02/26 at 09:40 AM

Clearly Doug knows that his spin doesn’t represent the future of education in Ontario or anywhere else in Canada.

So, yes Wayne your very objective observation about testiness when losing is the experience of many of us here.

He’s continuing to lose to teachers especially but also to parents here as well because when all you have is spin and union talking points you’re pretty well missing the boat on where the future of education is headed.

Posted by Chuck on 02/26 at 10:34 AM

If so Doug, why is there a $2 billion plus tutoring industry across Canada in the K to 12 sector, and the bulk of it is on the 3 Rs.

If so Doug, why is the remediation and upgrading of the 3 Rs taking place in the colleges and universities across Canada.

Why is it, that the federal and provincial dollars being spent on upgrading adult skills, a huge slice of it is being spent on upgrading the 3 Rs.

Why is it Doug, poverty is used to advance the self-serving interests of the stakeholders within the education system, and than used to serve the dual purpose of being used as an excuse for the regional data of falling achievement ,across the board.

Below is a Ted video -

Dave Eggers’ wish: Once Upon a School
http://www.ted.com/talks/dave_eggers_makes_his_ted_prize_wish_once_upon_a_school.html

Too bad the Canadian teachers’ union and the other stakeholders would never stand for it, because the people who are tutoring do not hold a teachers’ certificate, and they come from private enterprises.

“The essence of the program is that it’s like school, but it’s not school.

826 National is a nonprofit tutoring, writing, and publishing organization with locations in seven cities across the country. Our goal is to assist students ages six to eighteen with their writing skills, and to help teachers get their classes excited about writing. Our work is based on the understanding that great leaps in learning can happen with one-on-one attention, and that strong writing skills are fundamental to future success.”
http://onceuponaschool.org/about

And even if the teachers union brought into, the union would end up destroying it from the inside, by insisting, that it mimics the real classroom and how knowledge is learned.

What a neat idea, in opening up the academic networks of knowledge for low-income students that can be applied for any specific skill besides writing skills.

,

Posted by Nancy on 02/26 at 12:57 PM

He?s continuing to lose to teachers especially but also to parents here as well because when all you have is spin and union talking points you?re pretty well missing the boat on where the future of education is headed.

Chuck why would I expect to convert very ideological people here to my left-of-centre position. That would be impossible. My point very well put by Paul Bennett on his site is to point out why the so called reformers are getting nowhere fast in Canada. The tide has also crested in the USA, failed and is now in reverse.

The first is that Canada has one of the very best education systems in the world. The second is that any shortcomings we have are answered on the left not on the right.

I simply want to protect you from the drivel that is served up by the right wing sound machine but in the end is profoundly incorrect and wastes a lot of out time and money.

I am hardly trying to win a popularity contest Chuck but I am winning the battle of ideas by a wide margin.

Posted by Doug on 02/26 at 04:15 PM

“The second is that any shortcomings we have are answered on the left not on the right.”

Personally education policy should never be decided on the politically ideology. But the above statement of Doug’s speaks volumes of why the public education system is the way today, not only in terms of costs, but to serve the self-interests and agendas of the adults within the education system, including the ideology and dogma of twisted education practices at the expense of the students’ education.

The left sees children as hard to teach, because they see children with all kinds of deficits. If they is one thing that I have observed and experience, a conservative will listen, asked questions for clarification and have empathy for a parent. The extreme left, or the NDP. will discount the parents’ concerns and magnified the other students who are in much worse circumstances, and than asked the parent to accept the fate of their children. As for Liberals, so far the ones I met, are secret closeted conservatives, telling you to go to the nearest tutor but don’t tell the school.

There is no answers at the extreme left, except heart ache and a whole bunch of sad statistics in final education outcomes.

And that is, if Doug represents the extreme left. But I highly doubt it, since his colour is green as in money, considering the private school he owns, taking full advantage of a public education system and all of its fault lines.

Posted by Nancy on 02/26 at 05:19 PM

“I simply want to protect you “

... and speaking of drivel ... do you leap tall buildings too?

Posted by Wayne Scott Ng on 02/26 at 06:42 PM

Wayne - thank-you!

Posted by Chuck on 02/27 at 08:07 AM

“I am hardly trying to win a popularity contest Chuck but I am winning the battle of ideas by a wide margin.”

Again, you read what YOU wanted in to my words, not what’s actually there.

Continue with your unpopular spin, but I do recall from your own admission that you’re visiting conservative forums to “provoke” - but you’re not even doing that very well any more.

Posted by Chuck on 02/27 at 08:11 AM

Continue with your unpopular spin

It is only unpopular on here Chuck because it represents the general feeling in Ontario that repeatedly rejects corporte reform and privatization,

Posted by Doug on 02/27 at 08:31 AM

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