Teachers still share a deep hatred for the Harris-Eves Regime. We are still trying to recover and rebuild a quality education system.

Malkin and Doretta,

I have been trying my best to stay within your guidelines. I think you should ask Mr Sheep what STFU means. I can only use my imagination.

There’s a lot that our government could do to rein in these out-of-control teachers’ unions; however they’re afraid of ending up like former Premier Harris, so they’d rather pander to their every whim and the children end up paying dearly for this.

Why am I not surprised at the actions of unions that resort to bullying actions against students they’re supposed to help. Disgraceful.

I say leave notasheep’s comments to Doug’s imagination.

Notasheep seems to be being tasteful and considerate but at the same time saying what most of us likely think.

if I am out of line with my comments delete it. Doug’s entitled to his pompous union political fight against students.

Mr. Sheep’s comments have been deleted. He has been warned.

We all know by now the Mr.Doug’s statements have no proof and no connection to reality.

With no facts to support his statements Mr.Doug statements are - as TDSBNW was saying - just religious utterances repeated again and again like a broken record.

Well, let’s just ignore his broken record comments since he doesn’t seem capable of any other type of comments.

In today’s Toronto Star,

“In a letter to the university last month, OTF president Reno Melatti warned of dire consequences if the degree were conferred on Harris or if a new $23-million library — to be shared by Nipissing and nearby Canadore College — is named for the Progressive Conservative premier who governed Ontario from 1995 to 2002.

“Our members object, in the strongest possible terms, to any intent Nipissing may have to pursue such a misguided plan of action,” wrote Melatti.

“Many of our members have long operated as essential partners in the preparation of new teachers at your institution by serving as associate teachers for Nipissing’s teacher candidates,” the union president continued.

“Given the insidious treatment of the profession by … Mike Harris, and his total lack of respect for its members, we cannot predict how teachers may demonstrate their displeasure, should the university choose to name the new library after, or confer an honorary degree on Mr. Harris,” he said.

Melatti was not available for comment Wednesday to explain how any boycott of Nipissing student teachers could even be implemented.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/821189—harris-laments-union-s-bully-tactics-against-student-teachers

The OTF should be ashame of themselves, to even think of using low-ball tactics, that smacks of union brass bullying not only the university, but as well as the membership of OTF.
“He’s been a key supporter of our independent charter, so our existence as a standalone university owes much to his support,” she said in an interview.

“And you could say figuratively he brought North Bay an hour closer to Toronto … with the four-lane highway so … it’s a lot easier for students from southern Ontario, which is a good proportion of our students, to gain access.”

While Harris, who frequently sparred with teachers’ unions during his tenure, has also been a fundraiser for the school, Lovett-Doust said that had nothing to do with his being granted a degree.”

Now what has OTF brought to the table of the North Bay region?  Did they help to bring the 4-lane highway? Have they help to fund raising activities at the university?  Are they in the habit of supporting charters of new universities?  Does the OTF, actively support regions of Ontario, in terms of policy that would increase economic activities or makes citizens’ lives easier?

Here is the next link, in today’s National Post.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/University+stands+honorary+degree+given+Mike+Harris/3133787/story.html

What is interesting, is what Ken Coran, the president of the OTF and Sam Hammond of OETF, stated in the Star and what was stated in the NP.

In the Star: ” Sam Hammond, president of the Elementary Teachers’ Federation of Ontario, said he’s had emails of outrage from members opposed to honouring a politician who “dismantled much of public education and attacked our profession. The damage to morale still lingers today.”But Hammond pointed out “teachers don’t really get to choose which student teachers come into their class,” so an outright boycott of Nipissing could be difficult.”

In the NP: ”  In fact, Ken Coran, president of the Ontario Secondary School Teachers’ Federation, which is also under the OTF umbrella, said he has already caught flak from members of his federation.
“I don’t think the majority of our members would want to take this out on the students,” he said. “In fact, we are getting a lot of criticism from our members who wonder why we would ever take it out on the students.” Nonetheless, Mr. Coran said it is clear that many Ontario teachers are “very upset,” and some may well make the personal decision to turn away Nipissing students looking for a practicum placement.”

Which is it? Many e-mails from their members voicing displeasure of Harris, or many e-mails voicing their displeasure on the actions of the top brass of OTF

So Doug, the Tories have been out of office for what, 7 years now?  If the education issues were really about Harris-Eves, wouldn’t they have been solved by now?

the unions continue to fight their political battles on the backs of students. This is just more of the usual from them throwing their weight around and proving their disconnect from anything resembling professional ethics.

Now we hear that the OSSTF, ETFO and CUPE are fighting over who gets the ECE’s of the ELP.

The ruin of education in this province continues.

Add to that group OECTA (Catholic teachers).  I blogged about it here:

/index.php/blog/read/its-not-about-the-kids/

It’s the “Battle for the ECEs!” (no it’s not a new show in the CBC September line-up).  How long before ECE’s will be required to have a teaching certificate??  You read it here.

The rumour is Doretta that the OSSTF is interested in ECEs because as we know the declining enrolment bubble is going to be hitting the secondary panel this year and it’s expected that more secondary teachers will be declared surplus and not be called back.

So, those displaced educators are now filling the ranks of ECE programs to cash in on the jobs that would have normally gone to ECEs.  It’s truly not about children.

The rumour is wrong. All of the education unions are competing for the ECEs because every union wants to get bigger because with economies of scale you can do more things. OSSTF has been organizing ECEs as well as caretakers, secretaries, social workers, psychologists, speech paths, etc for 15 years.

You are a little behind Chuck. Declining enrolement hit secondary schools about 4 years ago.

“You are a little behind Chuck. Declining enrolement hit secondary schools about 4 years ago.”

Nope. Not wrong. This is the first year it’s going to show itself by way of surplus teachers not being called back.
If it wasn’t for that victory lap 5th year option and the move to put Grades 7 & 8 into secondaries they’d be harder hit still.

Sugar-coat it any way you like though.

The issue was declining enrolement. Secondary enrolement has been declining for many years now. My old OSSTF district had 7000 members in 2003 and now in is less than 5000. Of course this has been accomplished primarily by attrition but it is still declining enrolement. Teachers are not interested in the ECE jobs for teachers. Most do not have the proper training.

Chuck, the number of secondary teachers is 100% determined by the # and type of students. Putting grade 7&8 kids in secondary buildings does not make them secondary school students. For now their teachers will be ETFO members and OSSTF will not get one extra job out of it.

Teachers have no control over the “victory lap”.

There is a decline. You need a course in the jurisdictions of the federations, their training, their panels, etc before you opine.

Doug, since when did proper training ever hold boards back from hiring teachers?  The ministry allows any teacher to teach any subject up to and including grade 10.

Chuck’s point was that high school teachers are after the ECE jobs. Most high school teachers only took the training for intermediate and senior teaching. They have had no ECE training or even primary specialist certificates. OSSTF is after the ECE jobs but not for laid off secondary teachers. They just want the members themselves. It is OSSTF’s official position that it should merge with ETFO but ETFO is unwilling at this point. Too bad. I favour merging all four federations in Ontario to make one much stronger federation.

One big teachers’ union.  Hmm.  No choice for teachers either, not that they really have any.

Teachers always have a choice. They voted to form the union. They would vote on merger. Democracy is the way things are done. Do you mean an individual choice? That was all settled many years ago.

Are teachers teaching in public and catholic schoolboards allowed to not to be members of the union?

For example is it possible to works as a teacher for TDSB without being a member in the teacher’s union?

It is more of a theoretical question since for practical reasons: benefits, pensions I can understand how it will probably make sense to do what everybody else is doing.

This was settled in 1944 when the conservative government of George Drew passed legislation that placed every teacher in public and catholic schools in their respective federation by law. This is called a statuatory union.

The good news is that the university didn’t buckle to the threats of the teacher unions, and Harris got his honourary degree.

Proof once again how out of touch the teachers unions are with the public and their own teachers who I heard were as disgusted by the attack and threats on students as we were.

Ontario needs more Mike Harris.

According to Chuck, Mike Harris might be quite popular. I guess he would recommend that Tim Hudak ask Harris to campaign for him in the next election. Somehow I don’t see that happening. Harris remains a potent symbol of all that is wrong with right wing education reform. He is the best weapon Dalton has.

Yes, Doug, you’re quite right.  Your union propaganda machine is still working quite well, consequently many people believe, especially your rank and file, that Mike Harris was bad for education.
Your union’s treatment of him is despicable.  You win with outright lies, twisted facts, neglecting our children and mistreating people who stand up to you.  Are you proud of yourselves?

You just keep believing your fantasy Doug because the left in this province is grossly misreading the mood of the public for any more antics like this latest pr stunt.

If teachers only knew how much support they would have from their communities and parents if they decided to fight their unions for making them look like idiots by association.

Who knows perhaps it’s time to give educators a choice re: who represents them because from the outside looking in the union’s as responsible as anyone or anything else in playing divisive politics with students.

Mike Harris set back education by decades in Ontario. His ruthless attacks prompted a totally polarized atmosphere. A return to Harris politics just means a return to strikes, demonstrations, green ribbons on schools, and a deep seated alienation by parents, teachers, students, and the general public. Nobody wants to relive those days.

Correction, Mr. Little—the unions don’t want another Premier Harris.  That’s why your unions have been so terribly thuggish towards him:  you want to scare the daylights out of our polilticians. 
Governments are running huge deficits.  There isn’t going to be money to line the pockets of educrats; increase benefits; or allow fewer teaching hours any longer, so it doesn’t matter who gets into power next—it’ll be ugly.  I predict that when this happens there won’t be a lot of sympathy for the teachers unions either.
Too bad your disgusting unions have dragged down what used to be considered the most honourable of all professions.  Does this make you happy, Mr. Little?

Your propaganda will not work here Doug.

Bev’s correct. What’s done more to disengage folks from public education is the glut of union nonsense.

When dues paying members finally have enough there will be many to support those teachers who start demanding a little choice of their own.

The setback of public education has more to do with the union stranglehold on wimpy politicians who themselves came through the ranks.

Perhaps Ontarians need to stop electing former educators and school board types to government and more small business people who see the results of the education setback.

Hardly just the teachers. At the height of the Bill 160 walkout the polls showed the general public favoured the teachers over the government. Harris is hated by parents as well. Harrisism is simply associates with chaos, strikes, lockout, demonstrations, work-to-rule, cutbacks, attempts to remove $2 billion in education funding. Veronica Lacey was even on a bonus system for every dollar she removed. Rozanski pegged the figure at a loss of $2 Billion. Kids suffered, education was setback.

If I were Dalton I would hire a Mike Harris look alike double and take him to every community in Ontario to demonstrate the viseral hatred Ontarians hold towards him.

Doug, Harris is so long ago, that most people have forgotten about him. If they do remember, it will be the Walkerton water disaster, rather than anything else. Most people are in the mushy middle, who are neither left or right. They just want good governing. Ontario is more than Toronto, and you really should think outside of Toronto.

Nobody involved in education will every forget Harris or his disasterous regime. The federations teach their young members that this disaster must never be allowed to happen again at all costs. He is the poster boy for education policy at its very worst.

“He is the poster boy for education policy at its very worst.”

Not so Mr. Little and Harris has an honourary degree to prove it thanks to a university community that didn’t give in to union bullying.

Another thing Ontario will not forget is how the unions used children as pawns in illegal strikes. How they bullied their own members when the didn’t agree with them and how educators morale suffered not because of Harris and his policies but because the union and their parent puppets were better spinners and mythmakers. 

I also don’t believe that the young generations of teachers will buy the union BS.

Good thing you have no influence on them.

Ask yourself or Doretta if BS is the language you want to encourage.

call it what you will Doug. Bull, propaganda, myths, untruth,
it is what it is.  False.

Good thing that groups like SQE are around to filter the untruths and spin….even about its own organization from time to time.

Have to agree with whoever it was earlier who suggested that the Liberals and the teacher unions have grossly misread the mood of the province and voters who’ve had enough of Dalton bending to the unions and want something more like a Harris to clean up the mess that’s left.

I’m pretty sure that Doretta and the rest of the SQE gang have heard the “BS” term (and worse) when talking of union thuggery, but before Doretta rules on this I ask her to take into consideration the language Doug uses when in discussion with teacher Wayne Ng. Not exactly lacking for insults.

When the teacher unions reputations re: PR stunts and bullying behaviour are couched with false and spun information you can disguise it all you wish but when you’re wrong, you’re wrong, as many here have proven.

What makes it even more spin and fact is that Doug’s posts are the same no matter what reform blog he decides to monopolize.

If it’s fair for you to call me out on language, it’s equally fair for anyone here to call you out on it too. The only difference is that you like to change the subject.

Here is two more articles, that have brought up the Harris government’s accomplishments in education, and where many of them are still enforce.

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/christina_blizzard/2010/06/10/14343031.html

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/john_snobelen/2010/06/11/14360076.html

I kinda like the last line of the latter article.

“And here is the funny part. The union bosses finally elected their guy, Dalton McGuinty. He has now been premier for two terms. And all of those hated education reforms are still in place.

I guess that makes Harris the Education Premier. No wonder the unions hate him.”

Most of the unions first choice would have been Howard Hampton now Andrea Horwath. Dalton was just in a better position to win. The Federation use a strategic voting approach. The prime directive is Live long and Prosper which translates to keep the Tories out of power at all costs but if they happen to win, make the experience a trip to the dentist for them.

speaking to the initial post by Frank Gue Harris rec’d his honourary degree. The university didn’t listen to the unions….good on them!

Maybe they’re breaking some new ground in that respect.

I’m sure many in Ontario hope so.

“I guess that makes Harris the Education Premier. No wonder the unions hate him.”

Well said Nancy!

John “lets create a crisis” Snobelen is the only name that evokes the same viseral hatred as Mike Harris. Fifteen years later or not, the destructive atmosphere that surrounded education back then has not fully abated.

The federations make absolutely sure through their own internal political education that the Mike Harris legacy is remembered. The duty to keep the Tories out of power passes from generation to generation within the teaching population.

Thank-you for reminding me Doug that the whole “create of crisis” was also a trumped up myth pushed forward by the unions.

When folks learned the context of Snobelen’s remarks, which were embedded in a speech about how the problems of public education are so entrenched that one would need to create a crisis for the system to move and improve (not verbatim but that was the real message).

That the unions turned it into something else was so totally like them.

Funny thing is that Snobelen was dead-on then but apparently students not learning how to read and write was a crisis brought on not by Snobelen but by the very system you so love to cheerlead.

The problem with public education in still well embedded in a crisis of it’s own making…and that of the well paid bureaucracy and union greed.

That system you talk about is the envy of most countries including almost all developed countries.

Not when they see the grade 10 literacy results, Mr. Little.  I’m going to send those sad results to anyone contemplating moving to Ontario with school-aged children.  I think that before these international children are sent here, parents should also peruse the grade 10 literacy results.
That way at least our children’s tragic neglect by our educational system can be used to prevent it from happening to other children

The grade 10 results are quite good. Annie Kidder from the HUGE P4E group says they are good. Of course we can always do better but it WILL be expensive.

hahaha!  You’re kidding, right?

Same old ideological statements not backed up by data from Mr.Doug; nothing new.

Paying a person more money doesn’t make them able to teach better or smarter!
Once somebody believes that children learn to read and write “naturally” just by being read to, without being taught, no amount of money will make them effective teachers.

We need first of all a different approach to education not the so-called “progressive” ineffective, non-scientific and irresponsible dogma.

Secondly we need a lot of different people teaching in schools. People with different training and with different beliefs.
I’m saying that because while there are some teachers out there that still know how to teach effectively and who feel they are responsible for how much children learn in my opinion they are a small minority.

Doug, now who, what is claiming Canada is the envy of the world. I have never read an article anywhere that Canada is the envy of the world.

Even United States, will declared their universities the envy of the world, but their K-12 system needs a lot of work.

I have never seen a LD parent wishing they were in Canada. It is the opposite, Canadian LD parents are wishing they were in the United States or another country. At least they have the laws of the land to be used as leverage. Nor have I seen Americans cooing over the Canadian K-12 system.

Envy lies on what side the grass is greener. And it is here that international teachers’ unions covets the powerful Canadian teachers’ unions, and how well-position they are to prevent many of the things occurring in other countries and their teachers. But they wonder why, the Canadian unions are so accepting of centralization and micro-managing of their members, by the boards and the ministries.

Doretta quoted Annie Kidder Doug and her quote makes absolutely no sense at all.

That you drop this “Annie Kidder from the HUGE P4E group says they are good” is not unexpected as the P4E group isn’t as huge has you would like us to believe.

Could you please tell us what Kidder’s expertise is in education and since her group claims to help parents please list the ways in which P4E has helped parents get the best education for their children?

Can you also explain the hypocrisy of an organization led by an individual who made choices for her own children because she is in a position to do so, but peddles public education on others?

What possible right does Ms. Kidder or you have to make the public choice for parents?

Jim Coyle wrote a very reasonable column in the Star about this issue:
http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/821742—coyle-mike-harris-deserves-honorary-degree

Folks, here’s some thoughts.

P4E:  I could be wrong, but I don’t think there’s any information about homeschooling on the P4E site.  Nor is there any infromation about private schools.  I submit P4E places a higher priority on the public education system than on parents.  It’s aterrific site with loads of useful info.  I hope, though, noone is fooled into thinking this organization generically represents parents.

Doug’s continued comparision of Ontario’s results to other jurisdictions:  Well, there are considerations beyond average results.  Three more factors that come to mind are:  i) Dispersion of test results (are some scores really high and others really low or all they tightly clustered around average?)  ii)  cost to the taxpayer (not an insignificant consideration with the current state of health care spending) and iii) cost to the individual family (the costs of school advocacy are substantial for some of us).

Going forward, I may counter Doug’s “achievement claims” with a simple “but consider the three other factors”.  If I do, I am referring to the content of this post.

I suspect P4E is “HUGE” mostly in the sense that the media run to there whenever they need a quote to fill space.  Their staff consist of six people, from executive director to receptionist, and a couple of interns.

Claiming to be “people for education” doesn’t necessarily make it clear how many funders/followers it actually has.

Some years ago P4E sadly announced my local high school was on a list of closures and forgot to mention the new one going up three blocks away; something the townfolk were pretty happy about so I suspect there’s considerable room for scepticism in their research or, at least,  a fair degree of editorializing.

They’re sort of the “you can never spend enough” folks.

P4E is very clear that it represents the parents in publically financed systems. They are the only parents group that puts any fear whatever into the government. Pretty much all others can be ignored at no political cost.

John is P4E preaches that you can never spend enough it is because you can never spend enough.
There is a concept called ROI, return on investment that investors understand. With education, the more you spend, the more the economy grows and we all benefit.

Oh really?  Then why do you haunt this innocuous website day and night, Doug?

People For Education can claim it represents little greern martian s and it doesn’t make it so. 

  The overwhelming number of people, parents and otherwise, in Ontario are neither members of nor have they given those folks a mandate to do anything in their name.

Consider the constant appeals for money; if they’re the powerhouse someone here is claiming they’d be rolling in it, particularly with such a small organization. 

Run away and do some research and report back.

Actually you can’t know the ROI on anything unless you have an understanding of how the funds are used; contary to what some here claim to know about economics a dollar spent doesn’t carry the same value irrespective of where/how it is spent.

Do some research and report back when nyou have something new and convincing.

Doug, they do not represent parents in the way the original parent organization did. They are an organization that provides information to parents, and their goals is to support public education. It is their mandate. Over the years, they have turned into the cheer leaders of public education. There is no real advocacy for parents. Their forums are not places that parents can go to, with serious problems dealing with the school system. Otherwise, the site is well organized where the Ontario ministry’s information is provided in a clear and easy to understand.

I highly doubt that the ministry fears P4E. P4E has been co-opted a long time ago by the ministry, which uses P4E to passed down the ministry of education information to the parents. The solutions that are offered at P4E, are solutions that are a replica of the ministry’s mandate and goals.

As for you can never spend enough, coming from the P4E, is laughable coming from ladies who never had to worry about making a living, nor improve their social ranking. Probably in between shopping sprees, they have convince themselves that there is always a need for more funding in education, since they too live the same type of lives.

Too bad, we could not exile P4E to some rural Northern community for a couple of years. It is the only way they will find out what is the real reality The real difficulties and problems in the education system.

Yah, Nancy you’re right.  P4E, the ministry and the unions have all been in bed together for years—you usually don’t fear someone you’re in bed with…

P4E is just for the status quo and more of it (and enough money that no one will ever have to settle).
Annie is always good for a quick quote on the topic du jour and that’s all our media need in the 24/7 world.  She doesn’t go beyond the trite and they don’t ask her to.

What they don’t do is work much on how well the money already in the pot is being used.

I know many of the P4E leaders. They are not rich people.

Doug wrote “P4E is very clear that it represents the parents in publically financed systems.”

I’ve heard Kidder say publicly that she does not represent parents. As for putting fear into government. Wrong again.

If the fear exists it’s because governments know that Kidder and company are well paid advocates who tow the union line.

McGuinty didn’t fear them when he replaced Wynne did he? Perhaps he didn’t like that Wynne might sooner take the advice of the unelected parent puppets rather than her own colleagues?

Again, besides being able to read the scripts of teacher unions what is Kidder’s educational expertise?

Could it be the unions coddled this woman for them to prop up and use as needed? Wasn’t it true that it was the unions who got People for Education access to school board mailing and courriers that allowed their agenda unfettered access to school councils, WHICH, Kidder and company did not support initially?

Did unions not also see fit to use Kidder and co. during the Bill 160 circus to seed so-called “information” sessions to yell and scream at others in attendance?

How about the groups office local? Ring a bell Doug?

Legal assistance? Not a problem, the unions are supposedly only too happy to help.

When Kidder won the Lump of Learning award from the OSSTF, that doesn’t come without expectations does it.?

If Kidder and co. were well aware of how they were being used by the union and didn’t mind..all the power to them, but they sure don’t have the sweeping following you suggest.

As a matter of fact I know of parents and school councils who tried to get the P4E stopped from being sent to them because they simply weren’t interested.

Outside of the GTA P4E is not a huge influence on parents. They represent no sentiment of parents I am acquainted with.

“I know many of the P4E leaders. They are not rich people.”  - they do however make choices for their children because they have the means to do so. Kidder’s said as much on Coren.  Everyone knows she’s married to actor Eric Peterson(Corner Gas) and draws on her connections for fundraising and like-minded support.  I believe she did let it slip once too that she lived in Toronto’s Annex district. Sent her kids to Rosedale….because she could and wanted the best for her kids.

Actually, I recall one beautiful moment when Kidder and Wynne were shouted down at a meeting of residents in Don Valley West when the PC’s were in power. It was nice to watch because the goal of Kidder and Wynne at that point was to disrupt the proceedings. They didn’t get their way that evening.

Too bad for the rest of us schmucks.

Let’s be very honest with people Doug. P4E support the union agenda plain and simple. Parents who don’t will not support this group.

Oh, and just because the P4E organization has a mailing list that includes every school in the province doesn’t give them the right to include that schools numbers among the “hundreds” they claim they represent.

Kidder represents no one. She’s an unelected parent who had great help from the unions to promote herself and her organization.

Nothing wrong with that, except let’s be honest about it all shall we?

Simply, the P4E message is stale and its more money mantra doesn’t wash with the average Ontarian any more.

I wish P4E was closer to the federations. They are not. When the Days of Action Protests took place P4E sat them out.

What I do know is this. When they hold a conference, it is HUGE and people come from all across Ontario representing the four public systems.

They consistently tell the government that the system is seriously underfunded, that ESL students are being cheated of funding, that poor kids are still getting a raw deal.

Mr Sheep contends that Ontarians do not want more funding for education. What a laugh. I have yet to see one school board say please don’t sent us any more money we can’t spend what we have. I am waiting for the day that some school makes a deputation to their board saying, you are giving us too much money. Polls, OISE, Vector and many other polls say as long as you are spending our tax money on health and education then keep it coming.

They do not live in the Annex, they live in the Palmerston area. Rosedale School of the Arts is open to all students.

and once again the discussion becomes about that which Doug Little tosses out.

My apologies to readers. No more from me based on the diversions Doug likes to provoke.

If this needs to be a discussion on Kidder let us focus on her quote dealing with this subject which as has already been pointed out is nonsensical and sure doesn’t mirror that of most parents. Simply the P4E bubble.

Good point, Chuck, although inadvertantly, Mr. Little informs us rather than changes our minds.  For example, I was too naive to realize that the union is heavily involved in implementing bad teaching methods—the lack of phonics, drill in math, and good texts.  I figured from this that the union wants these bad teaching methods because it gains when there are more so-called LD children—more specialists, smaller class sizes, so more teachers/union members.  I would never have understood this without Mr. Little’s blogs.

Wrong Doug “When the Days of Action Protests took place P4E sat them out.”  They were the ones handing out coffee and donuts on the picket lines. They also encouraged other parents to do the same. If that’s not supporting the unions I don’t know what is.

The public is on to the glut of what it means to pay more and get less from the public system Doug.

Most of the folks here remember only too well the antics and know of how P4E manipulate the numbers and claim expertise despite having none to speak of.

P4E didn’t happen by accident and didn’t happen without the union’s help, who are the ones who frequent their events. They still can’t pretend to speak for parents.

I’ll take Chuck’s cue and stop taking Doug’s bait.

Doug, to the comment, “They consistently tell the government that the system is seriously underfunded, that ESL students are being cheated of funding, that poor kids are still getting a raw deal. “

Of course they do, it their poster child, much like the union’s poster child. P4E exists to be used both by the unions and the ministries, and it here they have to tread a balanced act on pleasing both sides. They sat out on the days of Action protests for a reason.  It was not in their best interests to take sides between the union and the ministry, because both are needed, for P4E to exist. Otherwise, P4E would never have existed. P4E exists for political reasons, and certainly not providing a platform for parents voices to be heard.

As for conferences, 300 people is not a lot of people. But than again that is 300 people who are willing to pay the admission price, of being provided information that is more or less that can be found on the government sites. As for the people who are attending, are not your average parent either. For the most part, they are working professionals who have a connection with education, through their work.
http://www.peopleforeducation.com/getinvolved/annualconference

As for the Palmerston area in Toronto. I suspect the residents living in this area, would all have high incomes. Here is a link, for what is the going price living in this pricey neighbourhood.
http://www.zoocasa.com/en/real_estate/968575-132-Palmerston-Ave-Toronto-Ontario

At $999,000 a bit too steep for the average income buyer.

Here is the Wiki link describing the Palmerston area, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmerston_Boulevard

This area like other Toronto areas, are being reclaimed again and is returning to what it once was, a wealthy enclave.

Nancy “As for conferences, 300 people is not a lot of people”  True. The Fraser Institute’s conference on choice topped 500 as did the Teachers for Excellence ParentNetwork Conference.

Similarly a Harris and EIC sponsored “Shifting the Balance” Conference topped over 1000 but then again these were folks who really believed that the balance would be shifted from the unions/bureaucrats to local school boards/councils.  I remember Kidder and Cathy Dandy handing out anti-gov’t leaflets at that event.

without the union’s help P4E wouldn’t have had the exposure they have all on their own. The help wasn’t always visible but it was there.

Something that’s always interested me is the connection between that Palmerston school and the Toronto Star. It was rumoured that it was quite the cosy set up. 

I’ve wondered whether the P4E shouldn’t be a registered lobby by how it has historically been anti Harris. Doesn’t having charity status negate any sort of lobbying for or against political parties?

I do believe that if a school choice conference were held today the attendance would top any status-quo event. There’s a silent majority who, while aging haven’t been heard in quite some time.

My comments are my wonderings in response to Nancy.

Here is the link for Palmerston school. For the typical public school, outside of Toronto - one can only dream of having such extras for their children.

“Here are some of the items we have in store so far for the silent auction:

*Nova Scotia Cottage for One week
*One Hour Massage
*Behind the Scenes Tour of CBC News Room
*Toronto FC Tickets
*Theatre and Opera tickets
*Cooking, Gardening and Baking Lessons
*Chance to be the Principal for a Day!”

As you can see, even their silent auctions would be a fantasy in other public schools..

http://palmerstonschool.org/

The second link is the new site for Palmerston school.

http://schools.tdsb.on.ca/palmerston/calendars.html

Nancy -  Palmerston sure sounds like a “have” school…just like Rosedale for those who have the means that is.

Palmerston at the time these people bought was nothing special. To buy in now is a different story. Rosedale same thing. When I taught there until 2003 most kids were from St James town and Regent Park but the arts based program was so successful that the yuppies are gradually taking over.

Doug, Palmerston area like other areas of TO, has always been areas that were seen as good areas to raise your children. It still is. I highly doubt that in 2003, there was a high amount of low-income kids attending the school. By the time of the 90s, neighbourhoods, such as St. James and Regent Park are also very upscale. The only difference is the degree of wealth. They are certainly not working people’s real estate anymore.

Here is another link describing the Annex.
“Those who stayed behind helped form the Annex Residents Association, a powerful lobby group that saved the Annex from the proposed Spadina Expressway which would have divided the neighbourhood in half, had it been built. The Annex has endured and is now over one hundred years old. It remains one of Toronto’s premier neighbourhoods, drawing its energy from the University of Toronto and its strength from diversity. It has its own community newspaper, the Annex Guardian.  Its residents include prominent artists and writers such as Margaret Atwood, politicians, community leaders and successful business people, academics, media personalities, University of Toronto students and faculty, and people from all walks of life.  Local acclaimed public schools include:

■Huron St. Jr. School
■Palmerston Ave. Jr. School
■Jesse Ketchum Jr. & Sr. School
■Lord Lansdowne Jr. & Sr. School
■King Edward Jr. & Sr. School
■Hawthorne Bilingual School
■Clinton St. Jr. School
■Central Technical School
■Rosedale Heights School of the Arts
■Harbord Collegiate Institute”

http://juliekinnear.com/toronto-neighbourhoods/the-annex-real-estate

It is good place to raise a family, and that is if one can afford to live in the area.

As for the Palmerston area in Toronto. I suspect the residents living in this area, would all have high incomes.

The Palmerston P.S. catchment area is not a wealthy area, it is very much a mixed area, with a lot of lower-income families, modest homes (bungalows, row houses, semi-detached, etc.) and many flats and rental units.  There are some spectacular old homes on Palmerston Boulevard, between Bloor and College Streets, which are being reclaimed (huge houses on spacious lots), and a variety of less spectacular homes north of Bloor (which is where Palmerston PS draws from). There are certainly wealthy folk who live in the area, attracted by the arts, proximity to the U of T and shopping areas, but many folk as well with very modest incomes. As far as the TDSB goes, Palmerston is not a well-to-do school. One that is would be Whitney, with the average family income close to a half million dollars per year. Palmerston weighs in at under $100 000, which is not that high for a family with several working adults, which is quite common in our lower-income cultural groups.

About half of kids enrolled at Palmerston are from outside the catchment area, because it has long been a French Immersion school and also one with a Gifted program, where the kids are bussed in.

A tarpaper shack in TO is beyond the reach of most average families, which is why so many of our new immigrants are purchasing in Peel, York and Durham: they can buy a much nicer, newer home for far less than a “handyman’s special” in Toronto. 

Not many locals would consider the area west of Bathurst to be “The Annex.”  Other schools listed, like King Edward, Clinton, Essex have very mixed populations (in terms of income) as well. Central Tech draws from all over the city, and many very poor kids go there.

One way lower-income families manage to buy a home is by having several families pool their funds. Even working cleaning jobs and driving cabs, they can get enough money for a down payment on a large home, rent part of it out, and start to build up equity.  Some of our families have done this, mostly moving to Brampton, Maple and Mississauga.

Still lots of poor kids at Regent Park P.S. and many others besides. There are many Ontario Housing properties that serve low-income families. Not everyone buys a house or a condo.

Frankly, I don’t understand the vituperative attitude towards Annie Kidder in particular and P4E in general. So what if they have a different point of view?  There’s nothing secret about it, or underhanded, so far as I can tell. They used to have meetings at The Children’s Storefront on Bathurst St (since burned down) and I went to a lot of them. Many of their leaders struck me as a bit naive, but sincere, and concerned with resources like libraries, music and art programs, and so on, in schools.

They have reached out to the immigrant community and are supportive of many of our parent activists in the West Indian, South Asian, Somali and Afghani communities. I don’t see Annie Kidder’s position on alternative schools to be hypocritical—she is forthright in saying she doesn’t think they are a good idea because (she fears) they will fragment the (IMO partly imaginary) social cohesion that public schools represent. Well, that’s the opinion of a substantial subset of people, and although I think they are fooling themselves, they are entitled to it.

Kidder frankly says her daughter wished to attend an alternative school, notwithstanding her parent’s ideology, and she respected the child’s choice. Good on her.  My old school, one of the lowest-income in the TDSB, sent a cohort of kids to the same alternative high school every year, so it wasn’t elitist even though it was perceived that way by some.

I’ve never heard P4E claim that they “represent”  parents in general, they call themselves an advocacy group, which is fair. SQE can make the same claim. Nothing wrong with advocating for what you believe in, the more the merrier.  Canadians in general are too complacent by half and don’t get sufficiently involved in the issues, so publicity for various points of view is a good thing.

Anyway…

  It appears the “Slag Mike Harris and Threaten Nippissing U” campaign pretty much died a quick death.

Tiime to lick the wounds, figure out who botched things up and get on with teaching.

I completely agree with your arguements, TDSBNW but what about the grants, and access to mailing lists that P4E is given and has assess to which other parent groups do not?  (At least this is what I’ve come to understand.)  Is this correct?  If so, do you consider it fair for our government—which all taxpayers must support—to favour one parent group over another?

“People for Education is an independent parent-led organization, working to improve public education in Ontario’s English, Catholic and French schools.

In 1996, we began as part of the parent association at a downtown Toronto school and have grown to become a provincial organization.We believe public education is the foundation of a civil society. In 2004 People for Education became a registered charity.

Charitable No. 85719 0532 RR0001

Vision

Public education has the capacity to transform and enrich children’s lives and is the foundation of a civil society. In a fully publicly funded education system, every child will have access to the education that meets his or her needs.”

In a way they do state they are representing parents.
Their objectives are:
“Objectives to liaise with boards of education, federal, provincial and local government agencies for the purpose of providing good quality education to students in the publicly funded education system and improving the resources received by publicly funded schools,  to sponsor conferences, seminars, public meetings for the exchange of ideas, information and experiences of parents, students, educators, and employees, with respect to publicly funded schools, to conduct research and collect data concerning the publicly funded education system and its resources in Ontario, and
to disseminate information on issues relating to public education.  to encourage the participation and support the inclusion of all parents and students in publicly funded schools.”
http://p4e.linezero.com/Default.aspx?DN=6de614f3-88b5-4685-8d11-348ddba8bb98

No P4E is not underhanded, but few if any parent organizations have the ability to have a seat at the government table. But it is obvious, their work is directed at promoting whatever goals the education ministry has, along with boards, and the unions, and when they object, it is done in such a fashion not to upset the cozy arrangements. As for parents, we are the window dressing.

I can well imagine a conversation with Kidder, if I ever had the opportunity to do so. Confronting issues are not their cup of tea, especially issues of SE. What they do well, is to provide information, that do not upset anyone, including parents. However it is not a place to go to if you are a parent in need of help, and need solid information to handled an issue.

Confronting issues are not their cup of tea, especially issues of SE. What they do well, is to provide information, that do not upset anyone, including parents. However it is not a place to go to if you are a parent in need of help, and need solid information to handled an issue.

That’s not what the parents in my school community (visible minority, low-SES parents, many with kids with SE issues) tell me. They say P4E has been a great source of help as well as information, on dealing with SE issues and many other issues besides. They have quite a network of people to whom they can refer parents for advice and support. They put on workshops for parents in minority communities to help them navigate the SE system and put out materials in various languages.

As far as I know they have no privileged access to “mailing lists” at the present time (maybe they did once? Can’t say). You have to ask to be on their mailing list; many school council people, teachers and parents go to the website and request to be on it.  They can mail stuff to a school just like any organization can do—school names, addresses, and the names of their council chairs are public information on the web, at least in the TDSB.  SQE could send mailings to the School Council chairs by name, and mailings and emails to school personnel as well. There is nothing secret or privileged here.

They have resources because they are more successful at fundraising and getting support from foundations than other groups. They do have a core nucleus of people who worked full-time for free on their cause for quite a few years.  That’s an advantage that’s hard to beat.

I have heard Kidder quoted as saying what “parents” want, however that’s less an issue of her saying it than a failure on the part of the interviewer to query her.

Ultimately she’s the go to person for a quote on education, and the Canadian Taxpayers Federation is if the media want to hear what “taxpayers” think and CARP, or whatever it calls itself these days, is to find out what retirees/seniors think.

Essentially they’re all lobbying groups claiming to speak on behalf of far more people than they actually have a mandate to do.

I think the phrase is to have a “golden rolodex”, a list of regulars who can be called when the media need a soundbite on the issue du jour.  The original issue was Doug’s claim that P4E was a “huge” organization.  I think it’d more be classified as a small group with oversized influence in lobbying for the stautus quo.  They’re not really folks worried about pursuing alternatives to what’s already in place.

* Regarding alternative schools in Toronto, I don’t think they are elitist in the sense that only certain students have access to them.

What happens is there are so few of them and there is so little information about them that very few people know that they exist and even fewer know what they are about.
Even if you find out about them and look them up on the TDSB website, the information there doesn’t tell you what the school is really about and the word “alternative” doesn’t help.
Especially for the immigrants alternative tends to conjure images of students that don’t have what it takes to make it in the mainstream.

So the “elitist” part is about having information that they exist, being able to find out what the schools are about either from other people or by taking time off to investigate, and knowing how to apply so that you can apply in time.
The admission varies by lottery, by interview or by portofolio and tests depending on the school.

I would argue that art schools that you need a portofolio for are elitist because you cannot be good enough to get in based on the art instruction in a regular school.
The interview ones I don’t know much about and I’d like to find out.

* I’ve watched Ms.Kidder speak in TV debates a few times. She seems to sincerely believe in her point of view and she has the right to.

She came across to me as very astute in making herself heard and making it look as if she speaks for a majority. She may well believe she speaks for a majority.
She has political and PR skills and the self-assurance of an educated, white, upper-middle class person and whether we agree or disagree with her point of view that’s how the game is played. That’s what anybody who wants to advance a cause needs to do.

The reality is that it matters not only what you say but how you say it.

It matters less whether one’s point of view is true or or proven, if it’s not delived in a simple, memorable way and ideally optimistic it will not be even remembered.

I would argue that art schools that you need a portofolio for are elitist because you cannot be good enough to get in based on the art instruction in a regular school.

That isn’t true.  We send kids to Etobicoke School of the Arts every year. With rare exceptions, none have had access to art or music instruction outside of “regular school” and we have no specialist art, drama or music teachers, except for the instrumental music program in middle school.

So how do those students get into ESA?  They put their portfolios etc. together at school, with help from teachers if needed.  It’s a great opportunity for them, because they do not come from families with the resources to pay for music, drama or art lessons.

The arts program is elite, but not elitist.

I went with a student and parent once to an interview for an alternative middle school. It was really mostly about making sure the student and parent understood what the school offered and required, that the student really wanted to go, and that the parent understood some of the limitations (no transportation, no specialist teachers, no Sp. Ed. support at that time, one afternoon a week devoted to community-based projects , etc.)

They try to discourage kids who really would not be happy with the program, because significant changes in enrolment after the end of September are disruptive to all concerned.  My student decided the alternative program demanded more self-discipline and independent work than he was ready to handle. He went to a regular middle school instead and withdrew his application. He was “smart” enough for the alternative school, it just wasn’t a good match and he didn’t like the idea of traveling that far every day.  It was good that the interview got all these issues on the table so that both the student and the parent could consider them..Other students I had responded differently and went to the alternative middle schools and thrived, while still another went but transferred out after a year because of the travel time.

Thank you for clarifying how the interview works.
What if there are still more people applying than the number of places?

About the Etobicoke School of the Arts, the applicants are tested on their drawing skills, they are asked to draw an object using perspective and shading. This is a specialized skill that is not taught in school as far as I know. So I don’t know how anybody can pass the test without having taken a good number of private lessons.

If there are more applicants than places, a lottery is used.

Our students have not had private lessons, but every year about 6 get into ESA. I believe perspective drawing, shading, grayscale etc. are part of the intermediate art curriculum. However I have never taught art so I don’t know for certain. We have no specialist art teachers, so our students have not had any specialty training, only what the classroom teachers provide.

Those students who are admitted for music have also not had private lessons in most cases. We have one very talented music student this year who, according to the instrumental music itinerant teacher, is one of the best in the city. He has never had a private lesson (I know this for certain because I talked with his mother just recently). I guess the music program works pretty well for students who are committed and practise a lot.

What options do those in non-urban areas have to the services of the PS?

If there’s no willingess to allow anything other than a PS system, or to make it prohibitively expensive, it strikes me that folks outside urban areas have far fewer opportunities to seek out alternatives, whether a school or a teaching/learning style.

In some ways we’ve created a two-tier system; those in urban areas have options while those elsewhere don’t.  I don’t see that as fostering equality.

After returning from a 6-year stint in Asia, we bought a farm and raised our children in a rural environment.  With our public school system in the shape it’s in, I don’t think that our children missed out on much.  My eldest sister went back to her former highschool, Walkerville.  During the days of writing departmentals, this school was considered to be very strong academically.  Today it’s an arts school.  She said that the hallways were dirty, dark and dingy; there was acid rock blasting over the pA system @ 8 a.m., and when the national anthym came on, the students hadn’t been taught to turn to the flag.  She said the atmosphere was depressing.  What’s worse is that these kids seem to believe they’re going to become actors; playwrights; singers.  It’s sad.  Some will get into teaching; some may even make a living at their art/craft; but most will be flipping burghers.

If you live in a rural area your house cost less your taxes are much lower and you just don’t have the economies of scale. This is why there is no subway in Barrie, no ballet in Orangeville, no Ontario Place in Huntsville. Boo hoo. There are advantages and disadvantages in living where you chose to live. You do have a choice you know.

What does the have anything to do with, Mr. Little?
I don’t begrudge where I live, and no matter what you say, the percentage of graduates from these specialized artsy schools will not get jobs in their fields—guaranteed!

So Doug, and others that think this way, are you justifying the two-tier education system - one for rural and one for urban, because people have a choice to live???

Too bad, rural parts, could not start some type of boycott, and prevent products and other raw resources coming into Toronto and the surrounding Metro area. Doug, you are completely citified. You are probably one of the many, that have not the foggiest idea where does all the stuff come from. But than again, you probably think rural people are your servants as well, to serve people like you. In your mind some where, you think it is ok to have a two-tier system, because we are just the servants.

By the way, there is excellent arts and culture in rural parts of Canada. And Barry does have Wonderland. Where do you think, Southern Ontario go, when on vacation?

Actually you have no choice if there’s one school in a reasonable distance and it doesn’t meet your needs.

Unlike the ballet, subways or Ontaio Place parents don’t have much opportunity to decide whther or not their kids deserve an acceptable education.

Being “progressive” is starting to look a little self-absorbed.

No Nancy I believe you should have high quality PS and HS available locally. Choice? Sorry you don’t have the people for that but it is vastly overrated anyway.

Sorry Doug, but since you mentioned it, there is the economies of scale to take into consideration. That excuse, has been handed down for the last 100 years or so. But it is real, and a reality in rural parts. It is why choice to where we want to send our children, should be given to us. It would promote competition among the local schools, to provide an education that is more in keeping with rural people. Besides, there is always a school in the local rural area, that does a better job at teaching reading, writing, and numeracy.

Nancy, thank you for your support.  I appreciate it; however we chose to buy a farm and live in a rural area.  There are many Torontonians who are our neighbours; and more than a few of our rural neighbours have also done stints in other countries who think the way we do.  We lived in countries with very rich cultural and artistic heritages, but when coming back to Canada, this is the choice we made, because here, the beauty of the countryside and vast openess is one of the best things Canada has to offer.
I wouldn’t be interested in a school that focuses on the arts; and from what I’ve been told, and have seen for myself regarding these schools only strenghtens my beliefs.  All of our children need a strong academic education which they’re not getting, and to put them in an arts programme where they don’t even have to audition will mostly produce a lot of dreamy kids with mediocre talent, so they’ll most likely not make it in the arts.  To boot they will have no skills when they realize this and want to join the workforce in the real world.

Not going to happen Nancy. Time to get real.

If products of the status quo are to be listened to ntohing would ever change.  What matters is that more and more people are expressing concern with the monopoly currently in place.

Very rarely do inmates of an institution provide critical analysis of it; they have too much to lose.

I think the key point is to note the almost hyperactive alarm at the prospect of people having the option of not settling for what’s on offer.  People who are able to comptete don’t fear competition

All of the boring boiler plate rhetoric, status quo, monopoly,etc has been around for decades.There are 2 types in the reform camp. Privatizing ideologues like the Fraser Institute types and the small minority of disgruntled parents who feel hard done by with the system. The kids grow up however and the disgruntled parents lose interest. Oh sure there are new ones but the disgruntled group does not grow and the ideologues are not enough. The vast number of kids are doing fine and therefore their parents are happy with the system. Some parents of children with learning difficulties want to blame someone other than themselves and want someone to make the problem go away. Not so easy.

Doug, what you said in the last sentence tells me where your mind set is. You have no concern for the education failures of the system. The vast majority have learning problems, that can be corrected in the reading, writing and numeracy department. I and all parents who have children with learning struggles, want the school to teach them to read and write, and the majority of them can be taught to read and write well, using reading programs that are based on the science and research over the past 60 years. Balanced literacy does not do it, nor can it be done without teachers being trained in reading and knowledge on learning disabilities.

As a teacher, you should be ashame of yourself. The teachers that I know, would never voice it or put it in words. They know, parents are frustrated and angry, at a system, that prevents basic reading and writing remediation to occur in a timely fashion. It is a good thing you do not live NL. you would not survived one week in anyone of our schools, with an attitude toward other children who learn differently. It also tells me, that you do not give a hoot about the type of programs in the ELP program. You think putting a bunch of children together, and throw them some play things, is good enough. One cannot identified children without the proper supports put in, but then again maybe this is not what they want in the first place. A typical ELP class, will have at least 1/2 identified as having a potential reading problem, if the proper supports and resources were put in. That would mean balance literacy was another waste of money, as all the other whole language programs.

I know you want to believe that because your daughter has learning problems. If fixing the problem was as easy as you say then it would have been done. There is no conspiracy.

Given that its only a “small group of disgruntled parents” there’s nothing to be risked by offering those who choose to seek out an alternative to the PS a small degree of financial help.  If, as we’re constantly told, the overwhelming majority are quite happy with the status quo PS there’d be minimal movement anyway.

The more accurate picture is that most parents can’t afford to pay thousands of dollars supporting the Public System and thousands more on an alternative.  Then there’s the fear of losing the money attached to the kids who’d leave.

We’ve covered this already; people who can’t afford to go elsewhere have no choice but to stay.  The claim that they stay by choice is more dubious.

Boo hoo?  Boring?  It’s the parent’s fault? There’s real care and concern for you.  You should consider running for political office, Doug, you’d be great at it.  You claim to want to convince people to come over to your way of thinking, and all you can do is tick them off.

A while you’re on about small minorities, I see you’re still aiming at that solid 6% of the Ontario taxpayers that want to increase spending on education even if it means paying more taxes.  As well, I see that you still haven’t come clean to the people here that your ‘preeminent expert in education’, Linda Darling-Hammond, is herself an owner of a private school.

In fact, anyone here at all interested in what private schools can do for low SES students, they ought to look up East Palo Alto High.  Ms. Hammond is doing wonders with these students.

Finally, Doug, when you blather on about, “The vast number of kids are doing fine ...” I know that you truly are out of touch with reality.  You haven’t darkened the door of a school for a long time to spout such rubbish.  You haven’t even read the EQAO results either.  I would hardly characterize 33% of applied students meeting the provincial standard in Grade 9 math as the vast majority doing well.  Glad you’re not my accountant.

You need to understand that the vast majority of kids are doing fine, the vast majority of parents are satisfied, even where alternatives are widely offered like Toronto they are a tiny percentage of the population. If you can’t get this part you will continue to have a tough row to hoe. The special ed lobby groups know who they are and who they represent at least.

Nice duck and weave, Doug - but try to actually counter some of the points I raised.  Your reply shows that you don’t understand simple facts - and you’re still way out of touch with reality, and your own history.

I seem to remember you crowing about your co-authoring the article “Why Johnny Can’t Fail.”  A cursory understanding of that article would not leave the impression that the vast majority are doing well.  Unless, of course, you are now saying you were wrong when you wrote that article.

What you don’t seem to understand is that in Toronto Vancouver and other places I am considered a severe critic of the system. You don’t recognize it because I am a critic from the left not the right.

What “alteratives” are “widely offered”  in Toronto and how much are parents obliged to pay to use them?

Without knowing the details it isn’t possible to know why parents would use or not use them; most families don’t have thousands of dollars sitting around.  I assumed most of us know that.

Quick scan of some alternative schools in Toronto:

Typically start at about $5,000, for a Montessori School, and head upward.

We consider those Private schools. I mean PUBLIC alternatives.

I became curious about the article Wayne mentioned.  Here is the link, http://www.osstf.on.ca/Default.aspx?DN=df12ede4-1617-4d5f-9aa1-e3ae92b18e3d

If Doug claimed to be co-author, he must have been a ghost writer.

We’ve coveredthat already; an “alternative” in the public sytem is still loaded down with all the baggage of seniority lists, salary grids, workrules, unionized teachers, etc.  They’re not really an alternative to the Public system.  I suspect you know that

I’m talking real alternative schools and they start at about $5,000 and up.  That’d quite probably be why lots of parents don’t have a hope of considering them.

Jon Cowans is a friend of mine. I was osstf Liasion to Durham osstf when he was on their exec and we served on osstf political action committee together. I did not co-write it. It is all him. He sent it to me before publication and I made some suggestions to improve it. I also fought to have it published as some did not want to but the majority wanted to publish it. I agreed with most but not all of it. I told Jon this.

Glad you finally admit it.  Too bad it’s a little too late for the people at Mended.  Perhaps you should think a little more carefully before trying to pad your resume.

PS:  I know you’re a critic. Unfortunately, you hold everyone else to a higher standard than yourself.  You demand that everyone prove their ideas - you provide nothing but vague numbers and drop names as if they actually back up what you say, rather than directly contradict you (al la LDH)

The alternatives within the public system are called alternative schools. The alternatives outside the public system are called private schools.

Try googling “Alternative Schools Toronto”.

It appears your’re not the one making the decision.

In any event the point is that charging parents $5,000 plus per year to use an alternative school, then claiming there’s no demand is for them is disingenous, at best.

* John, what alternative schools are you talking about that charge $5,000?

Are the alternative TDSB schools charging money? Or are you talking about private schools?

By the way, I would be very curios to know what Montessori school in Toronto charges $5000 a year. That’s extremely low.

The kindergarden Montessori programs that I know of all start at $900 a month that is $9000 a year and up and elementary school would be a bit more.

* TDSBNW, regarding the admission into the music program at the Etobicoke School for the Arts ... what you are suggesting that a student with public school instruction only - that is group band practice twice a week starting in grade 5 - can be better than a student who has started studying an instrument in grade 1 or earlier with private lessons strikes me as highly improbable.

The reason is simply that a student starting in grade 1 - even assuming the same quality of instruction and the same quality of practice - simply had 4 extra years of practice. 4 years of practice is huge in terms of musical development.

My son has started group piano lessons at Yamaha in grade 2 - cheaper and more motivating with group lessons at that age - .
Every year, the difference between the beginning of the year and the end of the year is huge, and that’s 1 year of practice not 4 years.
For us music is just good serious fun. I’m seeing a lot of kids at Yamaha that started when they were 4 or 5 who were also doing private lessons in addition to the group lessons and what my son can do now that he is 11 they can do when they are 8 and I’m sure there are such kids in other music schools.

Not everybody taking music lessons practices consistently or is very good, surely. A good 10-15% give up every year.
However there are so many kids taking music lessons starting in grade 1 and even earlier that there are bound to be a lot of them that have been practicing consistently and are therefore a lot better after 8 years of music than after 4.

Possible explanations? The music requirements for admission are set fairly low and who gets admitted is decided by lotery or the school is not considered to offer an advantage by the parents of students that are very serious about music and want to make a career out of it so these students don’t apply there.
Or maybe there is a friend of his parents, a relative that trains him. Even in that case to make up a 4 year difference in practice, he would have to play for hours and hours every day.

Sorry, it just doesn’t seem realistic.

Hi Europe

Those are alternative schools outside the TDSB.

The problem with attending an alternative inside the board is that they’re governed by the smae bureaucracy and union rules as any other school.

As to where to find their details try http://www.ourkids.net or even google for Alternate Schools Toronto.

The Montessori schools appear to start in the range of just over $5,000.  As to further info check out their various sites.

I think the point I was trying to get across is mostly the claim that there’s only minimal demand for anything other than the Public School system is quite likely a function of the difficulty of parents paying the extra fees. 

Here in Ontario parents are required to pay the costs of the Public System, then whatever additional fees would come into play to go anywhere else.

It adds up to several thousand dollars every year and so provides a very real barrier to most families.

Realistic or not, it is what it is. We send kids to ESA every year who have NOT had private lessons in their lives. BTW it is not band, it is strings. The young man who is considered to be such a strong performer did very well at Kiwanis also, trouncing a bunch of kids in his age group from much higher-income schools like Deer Park, Runnymede,  Bowmore . In fact our groups do well in the TDSB competitions against schools whose students probably have had private lessons (as you say, music lessons are very common for middle class kids—but we have practically no middle class kids enrolled, we are very high on the LOI and family incomes are very low).

Perhaps you are assuming that the audition is the determining factor in admission to ESA. I’m sure that is not the case—the student must be very strong academically in English, math and other subjects. Preference is given to students in the catchment area (most of the 8 west-end families of schools, AFAIK). The program is academically demanding and students do go on to university and some into professional careers in the arts, although that has not been the main reason the students I know of have applied there. They had a strong interest in the arts but not all wanted to make it their career. A school that combined academic rigour and arts was just the ticket.

I’m not familiar with the exact admissions criteria, but I have taught some of the students we have sent to ESA and I know for an absolute certainty they had no private lessons of any kind. The ones I know of have done well at ESA and a couple have had scholarships to U of T or York.

There are quite a few community music programs offered in areas like Jane-Finch, Regent Park etc.See
http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/activities/sportsandlessons/article/731371—gta-youth-music-programs-changing-lives
but I don’t know of any that are available to our students, except the schol programs.

I just got a copy of the quarterly polling from Vector. Can’t give too much detail because clients paid for information. Safe to say a small minority much less than 20 percent see any need for any alternatives to PS system. BTW a huge majority believe schools should be involved in sex education. A tiny group opposes this. Almost every person that supports private alternatives or opposes sex education votes PC. Even so they are only one third of the PC vote and make life very difficult for the majority of PCs. Carry on. Talk amongst yourselves.

Report back when you’re able to tell us who commissioned the poll and what the question were.

We’ve been over this before; polls can be fashioned in a manner to get just about any result desrired; that’s why there’s a need to know who the poll was done for.

Hate to think you’re shopping a poll sponsored by any group with a stake in the outcome.

My cultural assumptions trumped me again.
Since the school is named Etobicoke school for the Arts I assumed that arts would be the main focus of the school, that math would be de-emphasized and that admission would be based on art performance.

Oh, John, I thought you knew about a specific such school in Toronto!

5000$ for a full-day school?
I don’t know of any other than religious schools that I think are partially subsidized by the communities.
Even these ones are in the 6000$ range. 

If you happen to get specific information I would appreciate if you could share it.

TDSBNW, thank you for the information.

It may be obvious to you guys because you are used to it, but to me it’s completely illogical that in order for a student to have the choice of a school with good academic standards the child should pursue music.
And not just any instrument, band or orchestra instruments; the more unusual the greater the chance; piano and guitar music students, the arts school doesn’t want you.

I had an “aha” moment. Now I understand why after 2 years of piano the mother of one of kids in my son’s group at Yamaha told me that they are not going to come again in September; her son was going to start to learn how to play the violin or the flute instead of piano.

I read blogs, it seems that most arts schools in GTA are considered academically very good and that’s why the flute is a relatively popular instrument.

Good grief, nothing is what it seems to be.

If art schools, where your have to take time for other learning in order to practice are stronger academically that most other schools means that the average academic level is very low.
Thus any school that is able to select the students has an edge.

Are there any other such paths to school choice?

There is a connection between math and music. Studies: “It turns out that there is much evidence that supports the positive effects of music on one’s ability to do math. Most research shows that when children are trained in music at a young age, they tend to improve in their math skills. The surprising thing in this research is not that music as a whole is enhancing math skills. It is certain aspects of music that are affecting mathematics ability in a big way. Studies done mostly in children of young age show that their academic performance increases after a certain period of music education and training. One particular study published in the journal ‘Nature’ showed that when groups of first graders were given music instruction that emphasized sequential skill development and musical games involving rhythm and pitch, after six months, the students scored significantly better in math than students in groups that received traditional music instruction. (1)

The result of this study posed another important question. How does this type of music that emphasized sequential skills, rhythm and pitch manage to improve children’s ability to do math? It turned out that there are two distinguished types of reasoning, spatial temporal (ST) reasoning and Language analytical (LA) reasoning. LA reasoning would be involved in solving equations and obtaining a quantitative result. ST reasoning would be is utilized in activities like chess when one needs to think ahead several moves. The effect of music on math sometimes termed the Mozart effect. The Mozart effect gain its name after the discovery that listening to Mozart’s compositions, which is very sequential, produces a short-termed enhancement of spatial-temporal reasoning. Some key reasoning features used in spatial temporal reasoning are
1. The transformation and relating of mental images in space and time
2. Symmetries of the inherent cortical firing patterns used to compare physical and mental images and
3. Natural temporal sequences of those inherent cortical patterns (3).”

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1869

The above link, mentions the famous studies done on the link between music and math. I do believe in this link, because I seen the same thing with my own children. I brought it up, because it seems to be questioned why schools of art, have higher achievement rates. I do not know if there has been any studies done on this, but I believe there is a link between the dropping of music and art programs in the public schools, and increasing the time spent on reading and math.

I also believe that LD students would benefit greatly to overcome difficulties in reading, writing and numeracy. Not only will it boost their self-esteem, but it may very well start to fire up the their brain and start to make the cognitive connections.

“Dr Fujioka added: “Previous work has shown assignment to musical training is associated with improvements in IQ in school-aged children. Our work explores how musical training affects the way in which the brain develops. It is clear that music is good for children’s cognitive development and that music should be part of the pre-school and primary school curriculum.”

The next phase of the study will look at the benefits of musical training in older adults.”

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060920093024.htm

Are the grade 10 literacy tests broken down by school?  If the information is available on a school to school basis, it would be interesting to see how well the students at these arts schools fair on the literacy tests.  Reading these test results would varify or not these rumours of higher academic achievement.

Here is the link for the Toronto board and the art schools. This page is for the high schools. From a quick glance, there appears to be a relationship between the exposure of arts and literacy scores.
http://www.tdsb.on.ca/_site/ViewItem.asp?siteid=121&menuid=13654&pageid=12063

Also Bev, there is studies that are ongoing in the LD field, linking music sounds and language development. More exciting is the research of sound and phonemic awareness. It is why, I believe schools should returned to a more-rounded curriculum, which includes art and music. When I went to school, music was everyday, and art was once a week taking up the whole afternoon. These days, schools are lucky to have classes in music and art, in a 14 day cycle.  I certainly believe that exposing my LD child in the world of art and music, since she was wee, did play a part in developing the cognitive connections relating to reading and numeracy.

The relatioship is still one of SES and achievement. When Rosedale Heights SA was poor but artistic its scores were behind but when the affluent yuppies took over the scores took off.

Doug, if you became more aware of the cognitive developments in the research, SES factors would not have a significant impact on achievement rates. Also it would help to eliminate the biases that educators hold, regarding children who have lower achievement rates. Educators would tend to think in cognitive terms, rather than blaming outside factors, that none of us have any control over. We already know that you have hidden biases on children with learning difficulties, and it would not be difficult to stretch the biases towards children who are low-income.

That is a slander.I grew up poor. My educational and political life has been totally dedicated to the uplift of the poor. A huge I would say critical mass of education experts blame poverty for low achievement it is hardly just me. I DO sometimes feel SE parents can have unreal expectations. Everybody is working very hard. There is no conspiracy against SE kids. The issues of achievement are not pedagogical they are political.

I have always found that educators that have found parents to have unrealistic expectations of their LD children, are educators with a weak background in the science and the cognitive advancements that have been made.

“The issues of achievement are not pedagogical they are political.”

That line tells everyone where you stand. You are essentially blaming politics for low achievement, which can be blamed on a host of different issues in today’s society. It is the easy way out, by avoiding the responsibility of the individual. In education, SES factors are the blame for low achievement, and if press for a deeper answer, it is blamed on the political situation. The hidden bias lies with the refusal of looking at the pedagogical factors as largely being responsible for the low achievement rates. There is enough research on that in all areas of education, that would indicate that pedagogical factors plays a major role affecting achievement rates.

Bev,

The ministry provides EQAO results for any school on their edu.gov.on.ca site.  Use the ‘Find information about schools’ option and you can get all kinds of useful information about any school.

For example:  go to secondary schools, choose the find by name option, start typing West Hill SS and go to it.  You will find that we are part of the BWDSB.  Our enrollment is 1214.  10% of our students come from low income homes (16.5 is the provincial average).  79% of our students passed the literacy test the first time (84% is the provincial average). 

In fact, the depth of information is worrisome.  Could lead to school shopping by some parents - and perhaps for the wrong reasons.  I tried to raise this issue with OSSTF, but they didn’t seem interested.

I appreciate the info, Wayne. 
Now, may I ask, what would be the wrong reasons for parents to shope for schools?

Ah yes, Bev.  Excellent question.  I would go so far as to say that from the perspective of the individual family, there is actually an obligation to shop for schools.  For me, the story ends there.

I’ll entertain arguments if any wants to try to change my mind.

Note to Wayne:  When you say “perhaps for the wrong reasons”, are you referring to school-shopping itself?  Or are you referring to the criteria upon which a family may make it’s decision?

Like yourself, Dave, Wayne seems to be a man of integrity, so I’m willing to listen…

Doug, you’ve hit upon some touchy subjects for me.  Would you mind spelling out what you mean by “SE parents can have unreal expectations”.  I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you experienced this.  ***However***, I would like to be crystal clear about what you mean by this.

Thanks for the link, Nancy.  If I were a parent in the Toronto area, rather than the arts programmes, I would try to get my children into the IB programme, and have their music lessons as extra curricular activities.  The standards are much higher, and I believe the IB is still available in public schools, is it not?

Being in the country, we had to do a lot of the work ourselves to get our kids a good education.  Thank goodness my husband is a scientist, and I was an arts major, but there are also some good tutoring companies.

Well, the EQAO data for one.  Parents need to be very careful reading such information.  Let me give you a personal example.  I have taught at least one grade 10 subject every year since 1986.  Three years ago, I taught the best class ever.  The very next year - the absolute worst.  If you look at our statistics in the Grade 10 literacy test, you will see that we have dropped 7% in the last three years.  From a teacher’s perspective that is not surprising.  Any teacher will tell you that given a particular group of kids, a certain mix, you can have a really good class or a horrible class.  The students writing the exam for the last three years are not the same kids - so there will be variation in the results.  What would a parent conclude seeing our score slide 7% in 3 years?  You tell me.

The student population data would be another problem.  You will see that we lead the province in the % of students identified as gifted and those needing special ed resources.  Do we have some kind bimodal distribution with a high number at both extremes, rather than a bell curve?  No.  In fact, our gifted program is called ‘Trail’.  I have jokingly said that it is because they trail the other students in performance.  I have yet to get a satisfactory answer to my questions about who labels these students and when.

Simply put, Bev, I don’t think numbers are what parents need.  They need to go to the school,  meet the staff, see the facility - that will give them a better picture.  However, given the 24/7 nature of the internet, it’s all too easy to commit to, or reject a school simply by looking up data on the net.

Europe

  The key point is that just about any option for parents who’d prefer to send their kids outside the public system is quite expensive; the Montessori thing was just an example.

One of our more prolific contributors keeps claiming there’s little demand for anything other than whatever the PS offers.

There’s no way to determine what the demand would be so long as the alternative to the PS is often priced well beyond what most families can afford.  Do people use the PS because they’re happy with it or because they can’t afford anything else?  We’ll not know until the field is, even partially, made more level.

Ironically our more affluent families, including some of our political leaders, have the resources to, and sometimes do, send their kids outside the public system.

There is a connection between math and music.

This has been in the scientific literature for a long time, and has many pedagogical implications.

Coincidentally, Joanne Jacobs just touched on this topic:
http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/06/music-students-excel-in-algebra/

to me it’s completely illogical that in order for a student to have the choice of a school with good academic standards the child should pursue music.
And not just any instrument, band or orchestra instruments; the more unusual the greater the chance; piano and guitar music students, the arts school doesn’t want you.

A student does not need to pursue music to have a choice of a school with good academic standing. There are quite a few schools with good academic programs which have a special focus that appeals to particular students. These include IB programs, French programs, business programs (Scarlett Heights Entrepreneurial Academy), French programs, integrated technology, cyber arts, media arts, international studies, STEM (science, technology and mathematics), and several schools have special programs to enable students to get qualifications as CISCO/NORTEL networking technology specialists, study robotics or graphic design intensively, and many more that I can’t think of at the moment.

The arts schools like ESA are not all about music—music specialisits are only about a quarter of the students; visual arts (drawing, painting, sculpture, graphic design, photography), dance, drama and film are specialties as well. Plenty of students at ESA play piano or guitar, but they must also—if they are in instrumental music—play an instrument that can be part of a band or ensemble.

The students need good academic skills, because to allow adequate time for the arts, the reqular curricula need to be compacted, so students must be capable of covering the material at a faster rate and more independently. They do a lot of homework.

Anyhow, students in TDSB have many choices of specialized secondary programs (there are even ones for athletics, hospitality sefvices and construction sciences) but they are limited to 2 applications for optional attendance (that is, schools other than their local secondary), so they need to think carefully about what they want and whether they meet the criteria for specialty programs.

My observation, not a scientific sample, is that these selective schools cut the kids from low-performing, low-income elementary schools some slack if they have a strong work ethic and good recommendations. Some kids that I never thought would succeed at really competitive high schools—not because they weren’t committed enough, but because their level of preparedness was much below that of students from more advantaged schools—have done well. One that I taught to read in Grade 8—a complete non-reader, non-writer, not math-er (and not LD, just untaught)—I figured had come to academics too late to catch up. She dropped in a couple years later to tell me not only did she pass the OSSLT, she was getting good marks in Grade 12 at one of these very competitive secondary schools. She would be the first in her family to complete secondary school and was expecting to go on to college or university.

Poor or not, many of these kids have what it takes. They need good teaching, and often have to work harder than their advantaged peers, but are statistically more likely to graduate from university than their Anglo-Canadian classmates.

Hi Dave,

No, I’m not against school shopping per se.  Any parent wants what is best for their child.  That is understandable - except to certain dougmatic people.

I would suppose that would also explain why those with the resources send their kids to the schools they do.  It is too bad that the public system doesn’t recognize it.

Thanks, Wayne.  I agree with all your comments this morning.

Doretta and Malkin:  here’s an idea for a research paper.  How about a proposal for improved school disclosure?  I would recommend using the reports filed by publicly traded companies as inspiration.  Instead of financial statements, there could be EQAO scores along with explanatory footnotes.  There could be a Management Discussion and Analysis section.  Commentary/footnotes could include:  mandate of school, composition of student body, % of students writing EQAO tests, % students identified exceptional, explanation of method of instruction; textbooks; experience of teachers; homework policy and anything else that comes to mind ....

Wayne

  That’s the irony; we’re told that the whole point to having only one system is that it acts ensure that all kids receive an equitable education; a societal good.

The reality is that those with money, including some in our political class can, and do, send their kids to schools outside the public system.  They also fight any attempt to offer the same option to the rest of society.

Thanks, Wayne for your views; however I think that most sensible parents would look at perhaps 10 years of test results, and not only one year.
If I were looking, the drop in the literacy rate would indicate (to me anyways) that there were bad teachers for those kids.  It would be most interesting to track a teachers’ success/ failure records.  Of course we need testing every year and in every subject in order to accomplish it.

Are the grade 10 literacy tests broken down by school?

Often they are published in the newspapers on a school-by-school basis. However, the data lack context and can be misleading.  I remember a couple of years ago, when the data were published, a particular school (not in TDSB) was listed as having 0 students who passed the OSSLT. I even remember several SQE people express shock and mild outrage over this. Clearly it must be a terrible school!

In point of fact, it was a special secondary school for kids with developmental disabilities (“mental retardation” in the pre-politically-correct era). This fact was not mentioned in the paper, and would only be known to people close to the school. I knew it because a friend sent his son there and was (and remains) very positive about the school, which did an outstanding job of teaching the students independent living skills, occupational skills, and basic reading and math skills with an emphasis on functional reading and math (reading directions, writing a letter, calculating change, recording expenses, etc.).

Without context, however, you might think, OMG, what an awful school. But you’d be wrong. Similarly, with Grade 3 and 6 EQAO, the test changes every year, the requirements change every year, and of course the students change every year, so year-to-year comparisons at the school level are statistically invalid. Most people, however, including most educated people, do not know much about statistics, and don’t realize that in a particular school,  sharp change in score by only 2 or 3 students—who may be transfers in not even taught previously at that school—can significantly affect the school average. Furthermore, the “average” based on such a small sample is not statistically valid either, and in urban schools, where many have a 30% or higher turnover in students every year, the majority of students being tested have not been taught at the school where they are now enrolled.

The mobility is incredible. At a previous school, I looked over the 170 Grade 8 graduates one year and found that only 6 had been there from Grade 1 onward. EQAO has students fill out a questionnaire, and one question is how many schools they have attended—but many kids just don’t know. The grade 3 students might put down, 4 schools but when you check their OSR you find 7 or 8. They may have moved 3 times during SK, for instance, but only remember 1 move. So unless EQAO is verifying 8-year-olds’ self-reports, it doesn’t have accurate data on number of schools attended.

These factors do impact the way EQAO scores are perceived. At my school we have some very, very strong staff and many students do quite well, especially considering their language and poverty backgrounds. If you look at our EQAO scores, though, you would think the school gets worse as time goes on—the Grade 6 scores are much lower than the Grade 3. Now why is that? In fact our students who were with us in the primary grades are nearly all doing reasonably well. But we get transfers in from schools where the preparation was nowhere near as good, and those kids, in Grade 6, are peforming like our Grade 2’s and 3’s. Then I look at the scores for the schools they came from, and because they don’t have Grade 6, they don’t look too bad. The raw numbers can be deceiving.

Also it needs to be remembered that the EQAO does not measure skills like arithmetic, spelling, grammar, decoding, reading accuracy, knowledge of basic facts in history, geography, science. The marking schemes change from year to year, and without seeing what the students actually wrote you can’t tell what the results mean, whether they were too low or too high, or what the students need to learn to improve in real life.

For a few years EQAO returned the booklets to the parents, but they stopped doing it. I think they probably got feedback that the scores were too high. I know we complained more than once about non-readers getting a Level 3 when they wrote “I done no” or similar on every item.

EQAO testing would be more valuable if: (a) the process were more transparent, and (b) it was supplemented by more psychometrically valid assessments of specific component skills.

I’ve known about the the connection (or is it strong co-relation) between music and student academic achievement as long as I can remember.  Try learning piano—it’s hard, and to be any good one needs to work several hours/day.  You’ll get it without reading the latest ‘scientific’ data

... mandate of school, composition of student body, % of students writing EQAO tests, % students identified exceptional, explanation of method of instruction; textbooks; experience of teachers; homework policy and anything else that comes to mind ....

A lot of that information is publicly available right now. Most schools have as close to 100% of students writing EQAO as possible, because if a student—even a very handicapped student—“does” the test, s/he will almost certainly get at least a 1 maybe a 2, whereas students who do not write the test are scored as zero when averaging the scores. This brings the school’s average down.

School profiles available online usually include demographic data (not race or specific income), percentage of Sp. Ed. students, special programs, often information about instructional materials, extracurriculars, and resources.  Textbooks, homework policy, teaching methods are prescribed by the Ministry and the Board so there is not much room for local variation here.

There’s already a lot of information out there about individual schools. Wayne’s advice to check it out in person is the best. Apparently high academic achievement may have litle to do with the school in some cases. In high-SES neighbourhoods, sometimes 100% of the kids have private tutors.

One researcher who did a longitudinal study of a high-SES school and a low-SES school (one in North Toronto, one in Regent Park area) told me on the Q.T. that the ““rich” school was really inferior instructionally and she felt sorry for the kids there. Of course they tested well, because their parents picked up the slack, but she said the classes and teachers at the inner-city school were a quantum leap better. You wouldn’t know these things from test scores, though. You would have to observe and ask the right questions.
.

..Try learning piano…

Got to Grade 10 piano myself. However, I’ve always regretted not learning an ensemble instrument or studying voice. I really enjoyed choirs and musical groups in high school and university, but did not have a high enough skill level to make it into something like the Mendelssohn Choir or the Elmer Iseler Singers (I auditioned, but flunked). Piano isn’t something you can play in an ensemble unless you are *really* good, whereas if I had studied cello or clarinet I could have kept active in a number of community musical groups.

So for kids, I recommend a “group” instrument (or voice) as well as piano. Besides developing those music/math brain centres, it fosters discipline, persistence, and an intuitive grasp of the importance of component skill fluency to expert performance.

Yes, I agree.  My point was that much of this research is common sense.  I also agree that if kids yearn to do other things with their music, they should.

I believe exposure to music from a baby onward, can foster cognitive connections in areas of language and speech. There is studies, even reporting the effect on just being exposed to music on a daily basis.

For kids who are experiencing a speech delay, music may be an important factor in promoting speech. Parents are advise by some speech pathologists to have lots of music in the house, and to sing to your child, even when asking them if they want a cookie.

Hi Bev,

I agree that most parents would look at more longitudinal data.  I’m just concerned that that data is not as easily accessible as the short term data.  I would also be interested to know how many parents have seen/used the Ministry of Ed School finder data.

Dave,

I like the idea of annual reports - especially if it worked from the top on down, ie:  Ministry first, then board, then school.  I would really love to see some of those educrats actually have to make public, then publicly defend, some of these bizarre policies that they shove down the pipe.

“You would have to observe and ask the right questions.”
      Unfortunately, TDSBNW, I don’t always know the right questions.  And since I’m not in the education business, figuring out what the right questions are comes at a cost to me.
      Also, while the textbooks and homework policy are set by the board (urgh), I assure you there are teachers who operate differently on the sly.  Sometimes rightly, sometimes not.  Unfortunately, we parents can’t put some of these issues on the table without putting someone on the spot.  It’s unfortunate for all of us.

Hello All,

Well, here is a study that should satisfy all of you as well as myself.  It is a study on the various factors (including SES) and it is a Canadian Study (New Brunswick).  Again, my apologies if someone has referenced this before.

http://www.csse.ca/CJE/Articles/FullText/CJE25-1/CJE25-1-ma.pdf

Summary:

“At the student level, we consider four findings important. First, the items used to measure SES mean that this variable was about neither income nor parental occupation but rather education-related possessions and participation in social-cultural activities. This measure of SES may underestimate
the effect of SES at the student level but can still generate a reliable estimate of its effect at the school level (Willms, 1992). ... families’ attitudes and beliefs about schooling and learning. Low student academic achievement correlated with negative family attitudes and beliefs. This finding suggests opportunities to work with parents and students to improve student academic achievement.”

“Second, the effects of family structure (number of parents and number of siblings) disappeared when SES was considered”

“Third, the research literature in general claims that racial-ethnic differences in academic achievement disappear once SES is considered ... Our study
provides quite different evidence: When SES was taken into account, the relative effect of Native ethnicity on science, reading, and writing achievement remained as strong as its absolute effect. Native ethnicity was the single most important variable in this study, with more than twice the effect of SES in three out of four subject areas. Such a result has rarely been observed and suggests that the underachievement of Native students is not attributable merely to their SES but, perhaps, to their unsuccessful incorporation into the mainstream culture”

“Fourth, gender gaps existed even after controlling for SES. However, gender differences in mathematics achievement were so small, in contrast to consistently substantial gender gaps in other subject areas, that they may indicate a trend toward gender equity in mathematics education.”

What does all this mean?  Well, you can spend billions on ameliorating the effects of SES, but you’d be fixing between 18-35% of the problem (the amount of effect SES has on student achievement).  Furthermore, does it really take billions to change family attitudes?  It also explains the high achievement levels of immigrants - not some poppycock notion of ‘temporary low SES’, but the family attitudes of success.

This discussion is really interesting for me.

I’d like to make several points.

* >> Music fosters discipline, persistence, and an intuitive grasp of the importance of component skill fluency to expert performance <<
That’s exactly why my son is studying piano, to learn self-discipline and persistence.
He’s a bit lucky; since he has a decent year and practices consistently progresses relatively fast, fast enough to be interesting and beautiful.

* TDSBNW, if you have grade 10 piano then you know exactly what I mean by saying that 4 years of music practice makes a huge difference.

I think you are doing an amazing job helping the students that don’t have anybody else to bat for them find out and make the most out of what is available today.

What bothers me is that the rules are never clear.
I went to the ESA site and read all the information.
There is absolutely nothing saying that admission will be not only on the music performance, but also on the academic performance and that students living in the area have priority.
It is not transparent, it may not be fair and it is easy to manipulate.

Esentially whether a student is in or out can be based on fairly subjective factors - whether or not the admission officer “feels” that the student would do well, whether or not they think, “well she looks middle class, she’s playing well so surely she has other options ... and look she doesn’t even live in Etobicoke”.

Same thing happens with the IB programs in TDSB, essay and interview based. So again, a student’s fate depends a lot on somebody’s potentially subjective opinion.

Interestingly enough, in York region the admission to the Bayview IB program where demand is very high and a large percentage of the population are immigrants, admission is based on the results of the entrance test.

My point is, the rules are not clear, are not advertised and are subjective and open to manipulation.
If it is important to give priority to the students in the area - set aside a number of places they compete for, if it is important to give priority to the students with low SES and I think it is - set aside a number of places they compete for. .. whatever it is, I agree it probably make sense but do it upfront and transparently. 

* EQAO has a lot of faults, and since it is so open to be graded differently year to year comparisons don’t make sense in a lot of cases.
It is a known thing, inherent in the type of testing the government has chosen.
For better or for worse that’s all we have for now and it is better than nothing.
A little accountability is better than no accountability at all.

Personally I would prefer decoding fluency tests - they are not open to interpretation - , basic math computations tests.
Anyway there are a lot of other tests that are much better and whose results can be compared year to year.
Hard to know why they weren’t chosen, .. maybe because they can not be massaged, maybe because supposedly they do not reflect “authentic learning”?

I’m afraid that by complaining about the EQAO tests, would live us with not tests at all which I think is even worse.

* Yes, from what I’ve observed so far and the stories of my friends and acquintances in a lot of the schools considered good or desirable the quality of teaching is not necessary very good.
It is the work of the parents, the tutoring that mostly yields the higher EQAO results.

By the way, and Dave sorry to burst your bubble, you could say the same thing about quite a few private schools.
I have a Kumon centre close to where I live. There are quite a few kids wearing private school uniforms getting going there - The Crescent School, La Citadelle - .

Maybe the results are a bit better, but for the tuition amount most of them charge - over 15,000 - most of them are not offering education value for the money in my opinion.

Why? No incentives. No competition.

Some of them are not necessary only about education, I think they are about being in the “right circles” getting to know the right people, getting connected from a young age.

There is nothing in Wayne’s study that is surprising to anyone. The Native Aborginal culture was destroyed by white civilization. You notice of course that the reserchers acknowledge that most previous studies find SES to be the dominant factor by far. Aboriginals are about 5% of canada, once you move outside that group SES once again is dominant. What explains the high achievement of Koreans, Chinese and Japanese and the low achievement of Philipinos and Vietnamese? SES that is what. What explains the high achievement of immigrants from Chile and the low achievement of immigrants from central America? SES again.

Race can compound the effects of class but not eliminate them. Wayne acts as if I invented the idea that SES is critical in understanding achievement. I simply reflect the dominant thinking of the academy here.

http://www.boldapproach.org

Doug,

You’ve got that trampoline out again - jumping to conclusions.  I never said, nor would I ever say, that you would invent anything.  Only your arrogance and hubris would come up with that.

What this study shows, yet again, is the shallowness of your thinking and the paucity of facts and studies backing up your wild claims.  And don’t keep bringing up ‘bold approach’, I’ve already refuted it on several occasions.  Unless you want to look like a complete fool, I wouldn’t mention it again.

Europe, what bubble am I in?  I’m having trouble connecting your comments with anything I’ve said recently.

I do agree with your remarks about private schools.

Finally, a study that is pointing to another direction, where income is NOT the the over-all factor in student achievement. The studies that I have run across, which are few, since it has never been my focus, never made intuitive sense. The findings of the studies never seem to applied to what I have observed over the pass 40 years. There seems to be too many exceptions. The study that Wayne has provided makes sense to me, and provides what I have suspected all along, the evidence that matters, are the same evidence that I have observed. It explains why in my corner of the world, we have a large proportion of low-income students who are high achievers, and one thing the high and low income achievers shared is the kind of things that is outlined in the study.

The students shared education-related possessions and social-cultural activities. Where I live, it has been government policy to provide low-cost Internet connections. I have not check the latest stats, but in NL, it is well over 90 % of households, that computers and are connected to the Internet. As the study has indicated, it the families’ attitudes and beliefs about schooling and learning. “Low student academic achievement correlated with negative family attitudes and beliefs. This finding suggests opportunities to work
with parents and students to improve student academic achievement. It also illustrates the importance of considering the social construction of
SES: Relating student academic achievement to family income or parental occupation would lead to a totally different set of remedial measures.”

It makes sense to me in my part of the world as I have observed and experienced,  the low achievers of low-income have parents who do have negative attitudes toward school.

I also found this to be true in my observations over the years, and this study confirms it as well. “Of the three school climate factors we investigated, disciplinary climate, which here concerned mainly rules and compliance, was seen to be the most important determinant of academic achievement. This is an addition to the inventories of traits of effective schools reported by Lytton and Pyryt
(1998) and Zigarelli (1996). Some argue that clear reasonable rules and sanctions, active and proper enforcement, and positive relationships between
students and school staff form the basic elements of a disciplinary climate conducive to academic success (Ma & Willms, 1995).”

It is what schools lack in my opinion. A clear, highly structured discipline policy, and school policy that is enforced no matter what. What often happens, are some students are favoured more than others. Some rules do not applied to some students, and other students are always being discipline for breaking the rules. As I have observed, the students who are always in detention are the low-achievers, whereas the high-achievers get a break for not doing their homework, or calling another student a name.

http://www.csse.ca/CJE/Articles/FullText/CJE25-1/CJE25-1-ma.pdf

As the study has stated, “Relating student academic achievement to family income or parental occupation would lead to a totally different set of remedial measures.”

By doing so, it ignores other factors but as well as promoting inequalities among the students. The haves are ignored in favour of the have-nots, which in the end promotes and reinforces stereotypes in the school environment.

There should be other studies conducted since 2000, and no one should be particular surprised that it is a New Brunswick study. Atlantic Canada, and the government policies are often found not to be in sync with the other parts of Canada. In fact, the policies may be very well ahead of the rest of Canada. One just have to take a look at declining enrollments of schools, and where NL has been dealing with this fact for the last 20 years. Closing down small schools, is not a solution when future costs of transportation, and other factors are taken under consideration. One of the biggest factor, is the partial severing of the connection between the school and parents whose children are being bused over long distances.

Some of them (private schools)are not necessary only about education, I think they are about being in the “right circles” getting to know the right people, getting connected from a young age.

Very true. I had an illuminating discussion with a woman from an extracurricular activity I participate in.  She approached me, looking for advice on what to do about her Grade 2 daughter.  The child was not getting her work done in school, and brought home piles of stuff to do every night. Mom (and sometimes dad) spent 3-4 hours every night arguing with this kid and supervising her finishing the day’s classwork (not homework). There did not appear to be “learning disabilities involved, just time-wasting behaviour in class and more time spent socializing than working.  I asked what the child’s teacher had said about sending all this stuff home. The mom reported the teacher as saying something like,“I have 28 kids in a split grade, and I simply can’t be on top of your daughter every minute.”  Fair enough, I thought, although some other possibilities also occurred to me. Why not change the child’s seat? Maybe get a library carrel for her if she needs a place to work away from visual distraction? And so on.  I asked what school the child attended, and that’s when I had to conceal my surprise.

“She goes to Bishop Strachan,” the mom said (for those outside TO, BSS is one of the most elite girls’ prep schools in Canada. It has an excellent reputation and prices to match). I kept my face neutral. “Let me see if I understand you,” I said.“You are paying upwards of twenty grand per year to send Katie to Bishop Strachan, and *you* are doing most of the teaching, because she isn’t doing the work at school?  You could send her to Allenby [her neighbourhood P.S.—a pretty good one] and get better service, and less strain on yourself, by hiring someone to work with her after school to complete work.  You’re paying this school big bucks to let YOU teach your daughter?”

She looked at me in horror and indignation. “You don’t understand,” she said. “It’s not the teaching that is the issue. It’s the people she will meet at Bishop Strachan, the connections, the networking. It will benefit her all her life. It’s an investment in her future.”  I had never heard this position articulated so clearly before. I don’t think all parents of elite school students think this way (that is, disregard the academics) but it is definitely part of the cachet of private schools at that level that your son or daughter will make the right connections.

In fact, the peer group is an issue for parents (rightfully so I think) at less elite private schools as well. I have a friend who is a medical specialist and sent her children to the Halton Waldorf School.  Waldorf schools have some idiosyncratic ideas (such as the idea that children should not learn to read before they shed their baby teeth), but they have some wonderful aspects, too, like an emphasis on integrating the arts, learning handwork (boys and girls both learn knitting and crocheting), a lot of inclusion of classical mythology and fairy tales to develop the imagination, strict limits on technology. My friend’s kids were all academically strong, but she said one of the great things about Waldorf education was that her kids socialized with other kids who thought it was the most natural thing in the world to come home and play string quartets and write epic poems in the style of Beowulf instead of watching TV or playing video games.  Their friends were all artsy and “nerdy” too.

Well, TDSBNW, it sounds like this little girl was picking up well on what her mother valued most about the school—socializing with the right 7-yr-olds; not the learning part

Sorry John, my comment was addressed to Dave.

Dave seems to think that if only he had money for a private school his child’s problems would be solved.
In my opinition, in Toronto that’s not the case.

Most of the private schools have the same “progressive” belief system as the public schools. A lot of parents believe in the ideea that the best way for their childrent to learn is to get individualized learning and of course, after paying a lot of money they expect a lot of that.
As a consequence I’m not at all sure that alll the students in the private schools are held to high standards.
I’ve also heard through the grapevine that at some of the expensive private schools teachers are very careful with what they are saying so that not “to hurt” the students’ feelings. That’s not exactly conducive to holding everybody to high academic expectations.

My interest is in math - because I find the level of instruction and expectations in math abysimally low - so I tried to find out as much as possible about math.

The results of the math competitions for high schools show that the only private schools that consistently have more than one or two students with good results are the University of Toronto Schools, and PACE where students are selected by ability and mastery at the time of admission.

The other private schools have one or two students with good results once in a while, but that’s too little to indicate good curriculum and good teaching.
Most of the names are very ethnic - usually chinese - so the results may be well be explained by the strong base from the schooling in the home country.

Lack of options, lack of competition show their hand.

C’mon, don’t you remember Bell long distance 15 years ago. It was private. It was very expensive.
Today, after 10 years of choice? Prices have gone done for me from about 2.30$/min to 0.30$/min at Bell and even less from other providers or on calling cards.

Choice and competition are what we need.

It doesn’t need to be private at all.
There are other education systems where, since there is choice and funding is linked to the number of students a school attracts, individual schools try very hard to provide the type of learning the parents desire.

“Dave seems to think that if only he had money for a private school his child’s problems would be solved.”

Nope.  I think you’ve made some assumptions there, Europe.

I do believe payment to schools, including public, should pass through the hands of the families using them.  I think I posted about that elsewhere.  I don’t think I ever said, though, that the payments should comeout of the familys’ own resources.  I think the dough should come from the province, the family then decides which provider benefits (subject to some strings, probably).  I’m basically making the case for vouchers.

The comments you’ve made about private schools are largely consistent with my experience.  However, please keep in mind that not all private schools fall into the tony social circle mould.  Case in point would be Merle Levine Academy on Dufferin Street in Toronto.  Merle Levine is a 1-12 private school that specializes on special ed situations.  From the website: “Additionally, we are prepared to offer specialized programs to children with mood disorders and anxiety as well as those diagnosed asperger syndrome or prevasive developmental disorder.  These programs have additional costs.”

MLA uses something called Fast Forward in their language teaching.  I’m not sure what this is but the terms “phonemic awareness” and “Decoding” describe it on the website.

I don’t have a number for their tuition.  I think it’s significant.  I can tell you the deposit is $2,500.

I posted elsewhere about rebundling education services.  MLA is the kind of rebundling I had in mind.

On another post I asked Doug to explain to me why I shouldn’t be able to enact choice with respect to my child’s education.  I’ll issue that challenge here to anyone that wants to take it up.  What would be so wrong with the province diverting funding from public schools directly and giving parents a chance to direct to a school like Merle Levine Academy??

Got another one.  Check this out:  Black Oak Academy.

Black Oak is a pilot private school that is looking to open this fall.  It’s designed for children with Asperger’s Syndrome.  Founders are Margot Nelles (I think she’s the one who launched the Asperger’s Society of Ontario) and Wanda Bogris.

Tuition is $20,000.

Here’s a link to an article describing the endeavour:  http://www.healthzone.ca/health/parentcentral/newsfeatures/article/825576—pilot-school-for-kids-with-asperger-s-hopes-to-open-this-fall

This is another example of the kind of rebundling I was referring to in another post.

Memo to Doug:

Both Merle Levine Academy and Black Oak Academy are private schools founded and run by committed individuals.  Neither are products of the public school system.

Doug, can you still maintain that parents shouldn’t have a choice between public schools and places like MLA or Black Oak?  And if this kind of choice is acceptable for families in unusual special ed situations, can it really be denied to anyone else?

Caveat emptor on Fast ForWord.  The original research, by Drs. Paula Tallal and Michael Merzenich, was sound and showed that a computerized, sequential program was effective in remediating the problems of children with a specific language disability: auditory temporal processing disorder.  It slows down the presentation of the phonemes and builds rate and perceptual accuracy slowly.  The sample size was small (the specific disability is not that common. Preliminary research suggests it is related to the development of the magnocellular pathways during the prenatal period).

However, Fast ForWord’s promoters soon got $$$$ in their eyes when the developers saw the potential in the school market. Some districts (Philadelphia, for instance) bought FF for *every single child labeled with LD* regardless of whether they had “temporal processing disorder” or even language difficulties generally.

.  The FF people have developed spin-offs from their original program, but these have *not* been subject to empirical validation, they have enough data to be able to say for whom which programs work, but they do not share this data. Marketing trumps science.  In addition to being very expensiove (about $3000 per student), FF requires special computers and hardware dedicated exclusively to FF.

Now that’s not to say the program doesn’t benefit anyone—but it is no panacea, for LD kids or so-called dyslexic kids or, necessarily, for children on the ASD spectrum who tend to have language difficulties which may have other originating factors and manifestations, and benefit more from a Verbal Behaviour approach or fluency-based instruction..

An audiologist’s examination could determine whether a child has an audistory temporal processing deficit. Even children with auditory phonological processing issues may get no benefit from FFwhatever (I know of a number of sucjh cases). It also takes a lot of time—when done in school, it required 100 minutes daily for about 6 moinths. That’s a heck of a lot of instructional time. In the Philly system it showed few to no benefits for most students.

Sorry Dave, I’ve made assumptions.

When you said that there are private schools in Toronto where tuition is $5000 I assumed you were naive, that you were just at the begining of finding out information.

I totally agree with you that the money should follow the student to the school that the parents choose including non-profit charter or private schools.

I have said it repeatedly that I don’t think it’s fair for the government to impose poor education on us without accountability and without choice.

The 4 and 5 year old pre-school program is even more blatant in that respect than the elementary school since a lot of parents would not want and not need their children in a full-time program.
However they will be forced to pay for the program through taxes anyway.

For a school for kids with exceptionalities that has been in business for some time and has great results, check this out:
http://www.gregoryschool.ca/

TDSBNW: ‘so-called dyslexic kids’..............

I need to asked a question, do you have doubts that there dyslexia, or was it in reference to the children who just have specific reading problems, due to poor instruction, or never being taught.

I get a wee bit upset, because in Canada the majority of dyslexics are labeled under LD, and only a few of the mild-to-moderate are identified as being dyslexic.

As for Fast Forward, I too have read the research and the product development of the research. From the research, I had gotten the idea of slowing down my speech, when I wanted my child to listen and remember it. Whatever it was, I face her, slow down the speech and I made she she was looking at me. I only had to explain once, which as a parent it saved me a lot of time and grief. I also did this with tutoring. I found if I came in from the side, she did not learn as effectively. I did it with reading as well, but than you need another book, or learn to read the book up-side down. I became quite skilled at reading up-side down books.

The reason why I am stating this, is because I found the public education system are too quick to dismiss the research, and as a result there is no developments of methods that could be used by the educators inside the classroom. Face to face if instructing on a one-to-one is much more effective than side-by-side. With my child it improved her verbal expression, her listening skills, and her learning skills. The teachers have also stated to me, that it is effective and a time-saver, not only for my child, but other children in the classroom

I have spent the morning surfing through my favourite sites, where the general theme are the methods used in the public education system, addressing the weaknesses of children. Very little attention is being paid on the weaknesses of children. Many of the developments occurring in the LD , ADHD, and the other disorders, are products that addresses specific weaknesses. without actually addressing the core problem of reading, writing and numeracy. The programs are being purchased to avoid the more expensive solution, to have all SE teachers well-trained on reading and to provide 4 to 6 reading programs that have been proven to be effective, The purchased of the programs such as FastForward, pleased parents very much, because they see the improvements in their child’s behaviour, speech, and demeanor, and the child now have the ability to sit down and learn.

The cognitive research has exploded, and yet the public education system across this country are ignoring it. Of course there is no surprise that if the public education system are ignoring the science of reading, why should they pay attention to cognitive science.

The Learning Disability Association of Alberta, has started a new pilot program, directed at the Alberta teachers. It is called, The Right to Read.
http://www.righttoread.ca/

“All children in Kindergarten and Grade 1 will be screened for reading difficulties.

Children at risk for reading difficulties will receive effective intervention at the earliest possible stage in their educational career.

Students will realize their maximum potential.”

More on the pilot program.

“The LDAA is working with the Edmonton Public School Board to support a pilot project using the Firm Foundations Model for Early Literacy Teaching and Learning. Firm Foundations was created by the North Vancouver School District Number 44. It is a phonologically based teaching strategy that is play based and delivered by teachers in classrooms to all students.

The Firm Foundations program involves the systematic use of intervention to improve phonological awareness and letter naming skills. After 4 years of good classroom based instruction, the longitudinal evaluation of student risk and performance revealed that 2.7 % of English speaking students and 2% of students who were English language learners, were at risk for reading problems. As noted on the North Vancouver Website, this represents a 90% decline in “students in difficulty” over a 4 year period.”

Now, if it was found that 25 % of students with English as first language, and 40 % of students with English as second language, are at risk for reading difficulties, than why are the public schools not addressing it in the first place?  Why do we not see this type of pilot program in other places besides Edmonton, Alberta?  It is because parents in Edmonton have choices, and the rest of Canada does not?  Ever since choice came to the Alberta education system, the public schools of Alberta became better at providing, especially providing services for the SE kids.

I say “so-called dyslexia”  because in most cases, students with reading delays have no identified neurological issues. The definition of “dyslexia” used by the IDA (of which I am a member)  specifies that in order for this condition to be diagnosed, the student must have average or better intelligence and have received adequate instruction. 

The “discrepancy definition”  (based on IQ) has been conclusively refuted by the researchers—no difference in type of problem or instructional need by IQ level (see Stanovich for an extended treatment). Most children in public schools who have reading problems have *not* received adequate instruction (in line with what the research indicates is needed).

A majority of the “LD” kids I have taught have been “IDD”—Instructional Deficit Disorder.  If I can “fix” them with specific instruction, what happened to that “neurological” disability?

Now, there are kids with neurologically based learning problems, no doubt about that. But they are a minority of the casualties in reading failure.In some schools you have 40% or more students with significant reading delays. They sure don’t all have “neurological” problems.

And anyhow, we don’t need to know if they do or not in most cases. The same instruction works (with some modifications) for most children who struggle with the component skills of reading: mastering correspondences, the phonological skills (especially blending and segmenting sounds), and developing working memory, lexical retrieval and automaticity.

I do believe payment to schools, including public, should pass through the hands of the families using them….. I’m basically making the case for vouchers.

I think the most promising avenue for acceptance of vouchers in any form is in the case of children with truly exceptional learning needs.  Many kids with autism, severe developmental disabilities, severe LD, might be better and more cheaply served if the parents could take a voucher for the funding to a private provider.  This is actually done (on a small scale) even now, but parents have to go to court to get the province to pay for the services. This wastes a lot of money on lawyers—and you and I are footing the tax bill for the lawyers.I’d rather see that money going to the kids.

The public school system just does not have enough employees with the skill set to teach some of these very exceptional children effectively, and there is little if any evidence of effectiveness (the Auditor’s report has commented on this several times).

People who would be opposed to vouchers generally are much more open to the idea of contracting out specific services and therapies for exceptional children.

“A majority of the “LD” kids I have taught have been “IDD”—Instructional Deficit Disorder.  If I can “fix” them with specific instruction, what happened to that “neurological” disability?”

It is the definition of LD and subgroup of dyslexia that its origins of both, come from the medical world, that have been modified for education purposes. It is here where all the trouble begins. At presently, there is a raging debate among the researchers,  taking place to change the definitions where the emphasis would be an educational approach. Good instruction for LD students, lessens the problems with neurological weaknesses. Very good instruction can in fact fix the problems for the mild to moderate LD student to a point where it only becomes a problem, if the person is under some type of stress. I am talking from personal experience, my dyslexia weaknesses will show themselves when I am under stress. The neurological weaknesses goes underground, because of the effective learning strategies that are learned to overcome it. My writing was always the weaker part of me, and the school concentrated on root words, latin, grammar, spelling rules, and this all took place in the regular classroom, in the 1960s, 

Here is a link, explaining the debate of LD definition.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Learning+disabilities,+schools,+and+neurological+dysfunction.-a0173422708

“In some schools, you have 40 % or more students with significant reading delays.” Yes, not all of them will be considered having LD. But the IDA, states 15 % of the population have dyslexia, and many of them are never identified by the education system. Other organizations, researchers, etc, are stating anywhere between 10 to 20 % have dyslexia.

On Bright Solutions for Dyslexia, it states 20 %. “Fact: According to the NIH researchers, in the United States, dyslexia impacts 20% of our population. That’s 1 out of every 5 people.

But it does come in degrees. Some have it only mildly, some have it moderately, some have it severely, and some have it profoundly.

Very few children with dyslexia are in the special education system. Only 1 in 10 will be eligible for an IEP (when tested in second or third grade) under the category of Learning Disability (LD).

That means 9 out of 10 “fall through the cracks.” Although the parents and the teacher know there’s something different about the child, the child does not qualify for special education services, and most will no longer get help from the reading specialist after first or second grade.

Dyslexia is not rare. It is the most common reason a child will struggle first with spelling, then with written expression, and eventually “hit the wall” in reading development by third grade. “

http://www.dys-add.com/myths.html

Now how many of the 40 % are as you put it are Instructional Deficit Disorder?  Can the education system determine who is IDD or LD? Does it really matter? I think it does.  It matters a great deal to parents, whose children’s services were pulled, as soon as there was improvements.