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Society for Quality Education

Out of the Mouths of Babes

Out of the Mouths of Babes
January 12, 2011 by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) at 08:56 AM

       "We don't know what we are supposed to be doing, but we are learning about math," Thea Burnett, 6, said.

That just about sums up what this not-so-new fad is all about.  Reading this New York Times look at another recycled blast from the progressive past will raise a few eyebrows among seasoned educators and parents who know better.  What's the new experiment?  Nothing more that a return to open classrooms of 60 first graders, four teachers, lots of noise, chaos, and probably not much learning going on contrary to what little Thea says.  What the heck were these Brooklyn NY educators thinking, and worse, who in their right minds would allow this school?  But then, I'm not surprised. Old edu-habits are hard to break. (The comments posted after the online article are also worth a read.)

Here's a sample of what New American Academy classrooms are like:

       Lessons are a series of complex choreographies. In the 2,000-square-foot kindergarten, for example, each child is assigned a "university"- a grouping by skill level - and another group by color: blue, red or green. Every 40 minutes or so, the children regroup in a different part of the room. During a visit in November, an observer noticed that each move led to the children's standing up, running, talking, and then having to quiet down again.This is the hardest moment of the day," said Lorraine Scorsone, the master teacher in the kindergarten, as eight adults tried to wrangle the children into a semicircle for group  reading time. "In early childhood, disengaging is very difficult, and moving to another activity is very difficult."

       Ms. Scorsone, with 23 years of experience, had what appeared to be a magical touch, and the children listened raptly one day in November as she explained how a banana travels from foreign lands to local stores. But the other teachers, who do the bulk of the teaching, had more trouble gaining the attention of the children, who lay on carpets looking at the ceiling or fiddled with belts and shoelaces on the outskirts of lessons.

      "Ewww," squealed a boy named Ethan when he was told that the class would plant a banana tree later that day. Other children began mimicking the sound, which they had been making earlier. "Ethan, stop it," said his teacher, Pepe Gutierrez. "I don't know why you are screaming."

       The first grade was tougher, with less-experienced teachers and more children who were violent. In the first two months of school, a student pulled a chunk of an adult's hair out, and an ambulance crew was called twice to calm a child. Eight weeks into the year, the only student work visible on the blue-painted walls was a poster with finger-painted hand prints and the words "Hands Are Not for Hitting."

       "Many of the children have already had a year in what I would call a state of nature, when Rousseau spoke about people who live under no civilization," Mr. Waronker said, referring to the children's experience in a regular public school kindergarten. Fifteen children still could not recognize letters, and only one-third were at grade level. "This is messy work - this is the front lines."

       In the front of the room, Kathleen Kearns, a first-year teacher, strained to get her 20 students to understand how to use a chart to classify similarities and differences between two characters in a book. About half a dozen students refused to sit in their places.

       "I need you here; your job is here," she said to one, trying to be heard. After class, she said, "I am exhausted at the end of the day."

       "The school stresses student independence over teacher-led lessons, scientific inquiry over rote memorization and freedom and self-expression over strict structure and discipline. The founder, Shimon Waronker, developed the idea with several other graduate students at Harvard. It draws its inspiration, he said, from Phillips Exeter Academy, an elite boarding high school in New Hampshire where students in small classes work collaboratively and hold discussions around tables."

 This is progressivism at its worst and it will be interesting to see how children actually achieve as time goes on.  I suspect that they won't and this will be another ridiculous experiment doomed to failure.

        But Mr. Waronker decided to try out the model in one of the nation's toughest learning environments, a high poverty elementary school in which 20 percent of the children have been found to have emotional, physical or learning disabilities. The idea, he said, was to prove that his method could help any child, and should be widely used elsewhere. "I didn't want to create an environment that wasn't real for everyone else and then say, look at my success," he said.

       The challenges have been considerable. Faced with out-of-control classroom situations, Mr. Waronker, 42, had to rethink his idea that his model could work for even the most disturbed children. By January, three children who were violent had been moved to more-structured environments; seven other first graders moved away or withdrew, reducing the class size to 50."

 Seems that more things change, the more they stay the same.  Pity the children.

Comments

Thanks for this posting, it proves what I have long thought about the backgrounds of educational reformers.  The comment about basing the model on an elite private school is quite telling.

Similar story behind David Warlick an education ‘guru’ making the rounds on PD Days in Ontario.  He is from DC.  His idea is eerily similar to Waronker’s - teachers out of the way, no structure, let the students go ahead on their own - after all, it worked for his own son who is now studying at Harvard.  What caught my attention in the middle of his lecture was this statement:  “When I look around my neighbourhood and think a senator lives in this house, an ambassador next to him ...”  This guy obviously wasn’t from downtown DC, but the rich suburbs.  I highly doubt his ideas, like Waronker’s would work in the poor neighbourhoods - and this article proves it.

However, these are the speakers that are enthralling the Ministry bureaucrats and directors of education.  Little wonder we get these questionable methods presented as workable models.  Furthermore, teachers and parents that question these ‘pearls of wisdom’ are considered dinosaurs and naive.

Posted by Wayne Scott Ng on 01/12 at 09:45 AM

Thanks for keeping us up-to-date on the PD front. SQE knows that lack of structure in the primary grades—particularly for boys—is a problem for beginning reading instruction. 
I was hoping that educrats wouldn’t continue to be swayed by all the snake oil that is obviously still out there.

Posted by Doretta on 01/12 at 10:03 AM

I read this post this morning in the NY Times and by the time I could reply the 200 comments were closed.

Love your reply Doretta.
I had a similar situation in my own life-a person with a PHD-Don`t forget,they are very very different in education than in health-they ALL have a right to their own opinion and going forth with their experiments.I had trained 50 teachers in a First Nations community of 20 schools how to teach explicit systematic synthetic phonics-a life changer for these kids-Mrs.PHD comes in and suggests something like the above and completely alters the journey of honouring the empirical research results of the NICHD research study.
Therein lies the problem-zero standards.
We need standards of instruction-will it ever happen with every PHD getting to do their own thing?
Look what is going on in this school in Brooklyn-shameful!A complete scandal.

Posted by Jo-Anne Gross on 01/12 at 10:14 AM

I don’t know any teacher—progressive or otherwise—who wouldn’t be bristling after reading this article. I agree that this is problematic, for most of the same reasons listed here.

We know what principles and strategies work best in the early years and, by extension, we should also know what doesn’t work.

I will say that there are many ideas that look great on paper, but when it comes to implementation, whether large- or small-scale, cause us to re-evaluate.

I would have liked to have heard a whole lot more about the re-evaluation in this article, especially since there wasn’t anyone that seemed to be happy with this.

I would have lasted a week if things are as reported!

Posted by stephen hurley on 01/12 at 12:13 PM

Stephen,there are 200 comments on the New York Times-on line.

Posted by Jo-Anne Gross on 01/12 at 12:38 PM

I’m going to look at the comments later today. I’m going to assume that there aren’t too many in support?

stephen

Posted by Stephen Hurley on 01/12 at 01:14 PM

This just goes to show you that what might work brilliantly in an elite high school situation, may not be right for inner-city minority six-year-olds. 

Reminds me of what should be the quote of the day from today’s Globe & Mail that borders on the absurd: 
  “But even the commendable desire to improve literacy levels, said Annie Kidder of People for Education, ‘has become too much about the mechanics and not enough about understanding the joy of reading and what it does to help you understand yourself and your culture, connect to other people and participate in democracy.’” 

Say that again??
[http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/books/national-book-count-aims-to-show-that-books-count/article1866480/]

Posted by Doretta on 01/12 at 01:14 PM

Annie Kidder knows nothing about the research-as the head of People for Education she is a PR agency for the status quo.
Grr…that the Globe would take these words and publish them.

Every Dr.is not mixing their own Penicillin-standards!

Posted by Jo-Anne Gross on 01/12 at 01:23 PM

Off-Topic but I just found this on the newswire over at CTV and thought it appropriate seeing as though we’ve talked about this before here at one time or another.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110112/tiger-mothers-chua-110112/

Posted by Chuck on 01/12 at 03:26 PM

Ditto on the Kidder quote. That’s what happens when parents become handy puppet of the status quo instead of actually making common sense they read the script they’re given. 

I find little proof that People for Education has anything at all to do with advocating for the interests of parents. Even the P4E discussion pages are surprising filled with frustrated parents.

Did any one here watch Global TV last week and hear about the TDSB’s new idea to replace textbooks with e-readers?

Posted by Chuck on 01/12 at 03:33 PM

I have to agree with the spirit of what Annie is saying. The focus on literacy has done a great deal of good in our elementary schools. I think that we have to be vigilant that our efforts not only focus on the mechanics of language and language learning, but on the broader purpose of why we learn to read and write. And Annie’s statement is a good reminder that there is a social purpose for learning language.

I believe that schools have a duty to support both the literacy in all its dimensions. As someone wiser than I once said, “We need to teach children how to read the word, so that they can read the world!”

I think (an hope)  that there is lots of room for both the perspective of P4E and SQE.

Posted by stephen hurley on 01/12 at 04:13 PM

Sorry…

believe that schools have a duty to support literacy in all its dimensions

Posted by Stephen Hurley on 01/12 at 04:25 PM

Stephen, with all due respect you are hearing what you have been conditioned to hear.

Nobody here on this blog is in any shape or form against reading for pleasure, reading broadly, reading for a special purpose and reading all kinds of materials!

It is exactly because we want all the students to be able to read and read broadly that SQE and we say what we are saying:
It is IMPOSSIBLE to understand what you read if you cannot decode first.

One CANNOT build a large vocabulary and therefore read for pleasure if he cannot decode first; if that person guesses at word trying to recognize their shape - as if they were hierogliphs! - or to guess them by their beginnning that kind of stunted, halting, unsure reading would never be pleasurable.

One CANNOT build a large vocabulary early if the first few years of school he is exposed mostly to fairly simple picture books that he learns by heart. That is not reading.
These early 2 or 3 years spent this way means that by the time a child haltingly manages to build a sight-recognized vocabulary and a cross between decoding the first letters and guessing the word based on that and context he is no longer interested intellectually in simple material on one hand but is not able to deal with more complex and interesting material because he not only has some decoding issues but by now has a very narrow vocabulary.

So in order to read for a social purpose, to read for pleasure the reality is that one has first to learn how to decode at a high rate and with a high degree of accuracy.
No, none of us are saying that decoding is all there is to reading!
We are simply saying that one cannot succesfully build reading comprehension skills or expand vocabulary without being able to decode first.

Personally I am sick and tired of this false straw men that is brought forward again and again by some of the teachers, by the media, by people like Annie Kidder that somehow, by concentrating on mastering the basic skills first we somehow take away pleasure, creativity, yada, yada ..

Hello ... without being able to read you will not read for any purpose, without being able to do basic math you are not going to be able to balance your check or figure out how much money you need to save and you will be at the mercy of charismatic charlatans. Forget about being a creative engineer! Forget about being a skilled trade person!

Posted by fromEurope on 01/12 at 04:35 PM

Correction .. my first sentence should read
“reading for a social purpose”.

Posted by fromEurope on 01/12 at 04:36 PM

First of all, please don’t assume that you know how I’ve come to think the way that I have. We are all conditioned in some ways. A big part of literacy and critical thinking, for me, is being able to identify what has influenced me as a thinkers. But without knowing me, you don’t know what my influences have been. wink And I have no idea how you have come to think in the way that you have.

Second, I totally agree (and if you’ve read some of my comments in the past couple of weeks, you will find this same thread of thinking) that our children need to know how to decode before they can read and make sense of language. That is a given.

All I’m saying is that Annie’s comments merit some credibility.

I came to school knowing how to read; I can’t remember how I learned, and I’m sure that there was a good degree of “mechanical” intervention throughout.

I also went on to study French and Latin, and have come to love language in all its glory.

I will say that many of our French programs concentrate on the mechanics and most students in our District end up dropping the subject as soon as they are able. I’m not sure that there is a direct connection, but it bears some consideration.

So, I’m not trying to argue one perspective over the other. But, I do recognize that most of the discussion that is advocated here falls into a more mechanical stream.

I would love to know what you think classrooms could look like if all students were able to read and write at “grade level”. How would our language curriculum change?

Please note that this is not a confrontational question; its something that I’m currently doing thinking and writing about elsewhere, and I would love your perspective.

Posted by stephen hurley on 01/12 at 04:50 PM

Related to this post and to an earlier post
“These students are KEEN to learn” ..
a lot of people in the school system seem to be in love with experiential learning.

Stephen, I’ve read the link you provide to Diana Laufenberg TED video.
There’s nothing new in what she says.

Personally I disagree with her. She says: students no longer need to go to school to learn information because information is know accessible from everywhere.
Here’s my take.
First of all information that you know and you can explain and is deeply entrenched in your mind because you’ve memorized it, you’ve worked with it and you answered questions about is very different from information you have read about and did a project - especially a group project - once.
It is similar to the difference between active vocabulary and sight-recognizable vocabulary when you learn a foreign language.

Secondy, you go to school to train and structure your mind and to learn the structure of different fields of knowledge. Information means nothing without structure.
In the old days, because textbooks were expensive the people writing them had to think very hard about what was essential and what could be left out. Because the knowledge in textbooks would be for some people all the knowledge they were ever going to have about a subject the authors were forced to organize textbooks in such a way that the books could stand on their own and that they concentrated on what was essential.
Yes, the textbooks and the schools were giving information but - and much more important - they were building structure in a subject area. If a person would stop studying, then at least he would know the essentials.
If another person continued studying then he had a structured tree to grow and hang further pieces of knowledge in.

To summarize, I think experiential learning has a place and can be very powerful; I’ve had a few such experience as an adult.
However I don’t believe that experiential learning is conducive to solid learning and is effective if it happens before somebody has first of all mastered the basic skills - reading, writing, math - at a high proficiency level and secondly before somebody has the basic vocabulary, fact knowledge and structure knowledge in a subject area.

For example a book I love is “Guns, Germs and Steel”. Well, the books is self contained to some degree. However I don’t think somebody can get the full impact of the arguments in the book if that person doesn’t know about: climatic areas, the physical geography of the world, at least some basic knowlege about flora and fauna across the world. Some traditional history knowledge about ancient civilizations and the era of geographic discoveries would also help to get the full gist of Jared’s arguments.

Jared’s book was born from experiential learning. However Jared already had a solid classical background in a lot of discilplines that allowed him first to be aware of what he was seeing and secondly to be able to organize it in a meaningfull way.

Posted by fromEurope on 01/12 at 05:10 PM

Interesting, but I’ll need to take some time to respond…time when my 4-year old is not begging me to play hockey with him!

stephen LOL

Posted by Stephen Hurley on 01/12 at 05:44 PM

I think the only thing we can do due to the level of innocent ignorance-after all Dr.Stanovich was never able to convince the teacher licensing arm of the University to change their ways and all the videos from the Children of the Code interviews on line have not helped much either-as we see-no standards-till the governments insist and we may see the U.K.  go that way this year-it`s every man and every child for himself.

Perhaps some people in the education field that frequent this site could read a book called -A Scientific Revolution in Reading-Why Our Children Can`t Read-
Dr.Diane McGuiness.
We have an infestation of opinion in the field of education -it is the empirical research that leads in the Health Profession-time we look at acieving the same-but wait-100 PHD’s graduating this year-100 new opinions.
There is a massive difference between real research and thesis research.Causing opion based infestations-
One only has to attend research symposiums to see the ludicrous ideas explored AND IMPLEMENTED-on children-in schools.

Posted by Jo-Anne Gross on 01/13 at 05:57 AM

I will look for an e-book version of the title mentioned by Jo-Anne. Hopefully I can find one for my new KOBO!

I will also commit to reading it!

stephen

Posted by Stephen Hurley on 01/13 at 08:11 AM

test

Posted by chuck on 01/13 at 10:53 AM

Having trouble accessing this blog this morning. The problem is with the “submit the word you see below” - even when it’s correct I’m not getting through.

I wanted to say that I agree with Europe’s post.

Stephen - “First of all, please don’t assume that you know how I’ve come to think the way that I have. We are all conditioned in some ways. A big part of literacy and critical thinking, for me, is being able to identify what has influenced me as a thinkers. But without knowing me, you don’t know what my influences have been. wink And I have no idea how you have come to think in the way that you have.”

I would ask that you too abide by your words. I can’t speak for any others here but we’ve heard it all and then some before. Being scolded is nothing new.

Having experienced the public school system with two children the outcome was different for each child. The difference, the teacher and their methods. One child was more than prepared for post-secondary, one was not and without the help of tutors and parents that child who found all kinds of JOY in reading found out that THAT was not enough. One actually did have to learn a few basics by the time the system churned one out as a graduate. Really too bad that child had to find out the hardship of that reality a bit too late.

Ms. Kidder may be a nice lady and parent but please do tell me what qualifications she brings to the public that allows her to say what she was quoted as saying?

How did her kids fare? Would you be surprised if she turned to a group like SQE for help?

Posted by Chuck on 01/13 at 11:05 AM

fyi - worked that time folks but took a VERY long time in the loop.

Posted by Chuck on 01/13 at 11:06 AM

Personally,I feel Mr.Hurley is open-not closed like many.

Posted by Jo-Anne Gross on 01/13 at 11:10 AM

I’m trying to be!

Posted by Stephen Hurley on 01/13 at 11:30 AM

“I would ask that you too abide by your words. I can’t speak for any others here but we’ve heard it all and then some before. Being scolded is nothing new.”

At the risk of sounding self-righteous, which isn’t my intention at all, I don’t think I’ve accused anyone here of being wrong, misguided, or under the influence of… grin

Posted by Stephen Hurley on 01/13 at 11:32 AM

Speaking of books, has anyone read Willingham’s Why Don’t Students Like School?

I would love to know what books are on the bedside tables of folks around here. I’m moving into eBooks these days…not sure if I’m totally sold yet, but they have changed the level of “book clutter” around the house.

stephen

Posted by Stephen Hurley on 01/13 at 02:02 PM

Stephen - The way you started your post like this
“First of all, please don’t assume that you know how I’ve come to think the way that I have. We are all conditioned in some ways. A big part of literacy and critical thinking, for me, is being able to identify what has influenced me as a thinkers. But without knowing me, you don’t know what my influences have been. wink And I have no idea how you have come to think in the way that you have.”

came off as scolding to me and in a way I’m pretty sure that some of the folks here have heard this type of thing before.  Has nothing to do with you having an open-mind (as Jo-Ann suggested). 

I’m sure you mean well but that paragraph wasn’t really necessary in my opinion.

I also agreed with Europe and the others who felt Kidder’s response more of the same nonsense we’ve also heard far too often.

I asked that in your opinion what qualifies Ms. Kidder to make such a sweeping statement?

You didn’t answer me - instead you carried on in another direction - that of wondering what’s on the bedside tables of folks around here.

A little personal for my taste, but on my professional table at the moment are Issues in Political Theory (Cartiona McKinnon) and The Reformation of Canada’s School (Mark Holmes).

Your turn.

Posted by Chuck on 01/13 at 03:13 PM

Fair enough. I was merely reacting to the idea that I was hearing what I have been conditioned to hear. That’s all. If I came across as scolding that wasn’t my intention; that’s not the way that I choose to participate in conversations like this.

I stand corrected!

I really am not familiar with Annie Kidder’s qualifications. I’ve met her a couple of times; heard her a couple of times, but really don’t have a sense of her.

The bedside table question was a follow-up to Jo-Anne’s recommendation of a book, which I ordered today. (Note that I only asked about the books.)

I guess that I’m looking to see what informs the ideas of people here.

Posted by Stephen Hurley on 01/13 at 04:13 PM

“Modern education has taken an off-the-wall philosophy of near-Nature worship, mixed with extreme Darwinian genetic evolutionary notions, and is enforcing this on all the school children as a grand experiment in social “growth and evolution”. Dewey also talks incessantly about “growth” - which to him is a natural evolutionary process of “life”, stimuls-response factors, and genetic mutation, but again, he views this primarily from the viewpoint of the society or the group organism. Get that he truly conceives the social entity to be almost “living”, and admires it in the same way a pagan might worship Mother Earth or a Gnostic might contemplate the underlying unity and dynamic integrative process of the Universe. Personally, people can think and believe whatever they choose -I even find some of the ideas in gnostic literature interesting, but, and this is a big but, NO PHILOSOPHY or IDEOLOGY should be enforced on the public, especially the children. Laws have been passed, and huge amounts of government money support these educational ideas, which are, in fact, a complex ideology and orthodoxy about the nature of Man, the Universe and the relation of the two. See more on how modern materialistic ideologies are actually complex philosophies possessing many aspects of “religion”, and why government shouldn’t support them (i.e. separation of Church and State). “

Taken from a book called Dumbing Down Our Kids: Why America’s Children Feel Good About Themselves but Can’t Read, Write, or Add by Charles Sykes.

http://www.sntp.net/education/The_Reading_Wars.htm

It goes further to state that, “The basic intent of this “new education” is not to make highly intelligent, attentive, personally-motivated individuals, but to create feel-good, functional cogs for the future social machinery. Individuals and thinking minds are not important - groups and feelings are.” 

As Doretta has pointed out Anne Kidder, “Reminds me of what should be the quote of the day from today’s Globe & Mail that borders on the absurd: 
  “But even the commendable desire to improve literacy levels, said Annie Kidder of People for Education, ‘has become too much about the mechanics and not enough about understanding the joy of reading and what it does to help you understand yourself and your culture, connect to other people and participate in democracy.”

Anne Kidder will have her day when she is faced with an angry mob of parents wanting her head for being a spokesperson for promoting and working on the behalf of the educrats. ” In other words, the captains of industry and government explicitly wanted an educational system that would maintain social order by teaching us just enough to get by but not enough so that we could THINK for ourselves, question the sociopolitical order, or communicate articulately. We were to become good worker drones…..”

http://www.rense.com/general78/stranger.htm

There is no need for most children to become good readers and writers, because if they did they would start to think for themselves, displaying individualism and not as a collective, spewing out other people’s thoughts.

Thus, watch for more schools like the new American Academy. Far cheaper to warehouse students in a gym, than individual classrooms, since there is no need for most students to become good readers and writers.

A silver lining is emerging from violent events such as the senator being shot in the head last week, What is emerging besides gun control issues, is a hard look at the public education system, and what is being produced after 12 years of schooling. Watch for more, because the talk is about the dumbing down of students, the practices within the public education system, that may be the blame for the society that we have and all its ills and economic/political upheaval. From all the reading I have undertook in the pass two days, it is coming from all parts of society, and across all the social/political spectrum.

“Socialism and collectivism require conformity and the denigration of individualism….. What the elimination of “rote learning” means is that students actually don’t know anything, which makes it impossible to be autonomous or independent minded in any way that makes a practical difference. If you don’t know anything, you can have no informed judgment.”

http://www.friesian.com/public.htm

Posted by Nancy on 01/13 at 05:31 PM

Dear Nancy,your post is phenomenal!

Posted by Jo-Anne Gross on 01/13 at 05:36 PM

Thanks Joanne, because that means a lot to me and to all the educators in a certain public school in Ontario, that I went to. They saw all children, including the misfits like myself who did not have verbal language, all capable of become good readers and writers. When you described the reading process in an earlier post that was directed at Stephen, it was this process along with daily grammar and spelling lessons for the students, that they were very successful for almost all in the classroom to be good to excellent readers and writers. But more importantly, I was not exposed to any of the early progressive nonsense, because the union and teachers’ college did not start their death grip until the year after I left grade school.

Posted by Nancy on 01/13 at 07:01 PM

Stephen - thanks for your response. What I was trying to do is impress upon you something that educators forget often. Parents come at the public education system with high hopes and expectations. They leave it not with lists of books they’ve read on the specifics of reading instruction, or being able to quote another “expert”. They leave it with proof of their experience and the satisfaction that the experience for them and their child was an effective and rewarding one…..or not.

Parents have as much to teach educators as educators have to teacher parents, but, the parent, despite all the promises and their child is still the low man on the education hierarchy totem pole. 

I came from an immigrant family, had parents who didn’t read for pleasure and we didn’t have books in the house. I hated reading in school….HATED IT! What I did take to was language, spelling and writing….something that one of my children rec’d and one did not.

It took my youngest kid two years of post-secondary frustration to finally find the spark and take responsibility for her learning again. Her experiences, a no-fail policy and a system that let her believe she was better than she actually was, let her down.

First child, older more experienced teachers who knew that proven programs worked got phonics and saxon math. I didn’t know it back then that those primary teachers drew the angst of their colleagues and the principal of the day.

Oh, and speaking of principals. In our 16 years advocating for our kids in the school system we 10 Principals go through the revolving door.

Posted by Chuck on 01/14 at 06:49 AM

OK, I admit it, now I’m baffled.  It suddenly struck me reading Chuck’s post that this whole discussion makes no sense to me.  Much of Chuck’s experience growing up is similar to mine, except I loved reading very early.  It reminded me of my favourite story - “Bartholomew and the Oobleck”.  I still remember reading that story and laughing out loud in class - the only time I ever did that (in those days, noise was not allowed).  Where did the story come from?  My grade 2 reader - the book we were supposed to learn to read from.

Why has the whole discussion - from the original article about Annie Kidder all the way down to here - assumed that learning to read and learning to love to read have to be mutually exclusive?  Have our readers become so dry that there is no life in them?

Posted by Wayne Scott Ng on 01/14 at 09:18 AM

Sorry guys, I just realized I jumped threads.

Posted by Wayne Scott Ng on 01/14 at 09:20 AM

We can continue this on my post for today,/index.php/blog/read/math-challenges-continue/

but I’ll just add to Wayne’s comment:

I agree.  Certainly people can learn to read very well, be extremely literate and write in an articulate way, but who don’t enjoy to read as a pastime.  I’m married to someone who would rather spend his time on a golf course, but is a much better writer and more articulate than I’ll ever be.  It is possible to be a good reader, but not like to spend time reading books. 

The point is let’s make sure kids learn to read using the most effective methods, so that all kids who might like to read CAN read.

Posted by Doretta on 01/14 at 09:39 AM

If you don’t mind Doretta I’m going to respond to Wayne on this thread.

Wayne “Why has the whole discussion - from the original article about Annie Kidder all the way down to here - assumed that learning to read and learning to love to read have to be mutually exclusive?”

Excellent point! Relating it to my own experience, at the end of my days in public school I could read well, I just hated to be forced to read things that didn’t interest me.

It wasn’t until I began to have choices as in Gr. 10 in 1970 when our English classes were divided into English Literature, English Grammar and I think one more but I’ve forgotten what that was. I want to say Creative Writing but that’s not it. With the English Lit. semester we were allowed to choose three English Lit.
electives. There were a dozen electives to choose from, each had as its focus a different theme - science fiction,
westerns, Canadian, humour, biographies, history, and so on… Students could choose three different electives and their reading and learning material was all themed likewise. I started liking reading for pleasure when I could choose what I read.

Later in life it was all about what interested me and to be social around the water-cooler at work to know what people were talking about when they were raving over a best-seller.

I can tell you a very sad story about a young man who by his own admission was a straight “D” student who doesn’t know how he got through school. He’s a whiz at electronics and all things electronic and new age but he has no idea how to write a proposal for a project or fill out application forms well enough - I’m helping him do that. This fellow is not yet 30, has had I failed marriage and wants to start his own business because he doesn’t know how to market himself or sell his technological strength. In speaking with him there’s a very clear lack of confidence that any employer or client will pick up on.

I worry that there are too many more like him willing to pay someone to continue to do the writing and reading for him because he simply can’t do it. (I’ve refused accepting any money because I feel that I’m doing exactly what the school system did, giving him a pass and not making him learn for himself).

One hell of a lesson to learn approaching 30 years old, and no clue about what’s necessary to success at the very, VERY basic level.

Posted by Chuck on 01/14 at 10:36 AM

What Are the Main Obstacles That Children Encounter Today Concerning Reading Skills?

  * No Accountability-The main obstacle is that there is no accountability in schools that ensures that every child learns to their potential. No one gets fired if one third of the kindergarten class does not know their sounds and letters. Nobody loses a promotion or a year of seniority or a salary increase if one-third of the first grade kids can’t read at the end of grade one. Teachers are only expected to operate on a “best efforts basis”. They do not have to get results. When they fail, the child or the parents or both get the blame.

  * Limited Information-A second obstacle that children face in learning to read is that their teachers and parents are not well informed about effective versus ineffective reading programs. The child gets placed in a reading program that has no consistent data for success. The child fails because the program failed. Teachers are rarely taught Direct Instruction approaches to reading when they are given teacher training. Most educational training institutes do not like these methods despite their continued success. They continue to flog methods with no data and rely on their beliefs about reading rather than empirical research. Teachers are not taught the methods and therefore cannot implement them. That places another reading obstacle in front of the at-risk student.

  * Labeling-Children become too quickly labeled as “learning disabled” and are then not expected to succeed to normal standards. That is a cop-out by school districts that refuse to implement better programs selected on their proven successes. Labeling the student places the problem firmly inside the child’s head and allows teachers and administrators to avoid the responsibility to teach them well.

Credit for this brave writing-

Teach Your Children Well author-Michael Maloney


And,I am fed up!

Posted by Jo-Anne Gross on 01/14 at 11:46 AM

Sorry for answering so late, the last few days have been very busy for me.

Stephen, I did not mean to attack you or to create controversy.
When you said
>>
I have to agree with the spirit of what Annie is saying. The focus on literacy has done a great deal of good in our elementary schools. I think that we have to be vigilant that our efforts not only focus on the mechanics of language and language learning, but on the broader purpose of why we learn to read and write. And Annie’s statement is a good reminder that there is a social purpose for learning language.
<<
in my opinion you implied that there are people out there - and especially people like us that talk a lot about the mechanics of learning how to read - that disagree with and oppose the social purpose for learning language.
Oh my God, we need somebody like Annie to tell us that there there are broader purposes to reading! Duh! As if learning how to read is pitted against the broader purposes of why to read!
Sure talking about broader purposes, social purposes, reading for pleasure is easy, sexy, feels good and superior.
Who cares that you can’t just legislate or force kids to take pleasure in what they are not able to do well! Who cares that you have to know how to read even if you may not necessarily enjoy the process very much at least initially!

Sorry, I got carried away. I’m an engineer so big, empty words tend to irritate me.

When I said “conditioned to hear” I meant you felt that there was something worthy in what Annie is saying and that you felt that some people disagree with the broader purposes of reading.

Here’s why I think Annie is doing more bad than good regardless of her intentions (which may well be good and sincere.)
She seems to say that what we have today is mostly good and just needs a bit of tweaking. A bit more attentive parents, a few more books in the school libraries, a bit more pleasure in school.
Not only she says nothing of substance in my opinion, but by appearing everywhere in the news saying these platitudes that feel good she delays parents to take action first to help their own kids - hey, if everything is mostly good, it must be my own kid’s fault -  and then to fundamentally change the current system.

Posted by fromEurope on 01/15 at 11:03 PM

>> I would love to know what you think classrooms could look like if all students were able to read and write at “grade level”. How would our language curriculum change?
<<

First of all I still cannot understand in clear, specific terms what is expected from a student in Ontario at the end of each grade (despite trying to read the description of language curriculum on line several times). So for me, the language curriculum in Ontario is great, is wonderful but does not exist in practical terms.

The fact that based on TDSBNW’s explanations handwriting, spelling, grammar are not part of the Ontario curriculum leaves me speechless.

What I would wish for? Of course I would wish for a curriculum that does include teaching handwriting, penmanship, fast writing, spelling, grammar, reading.
Once these bases are covered, I would mostly wish for Hirsch suggested curriculum: specific skills and specific bodies of knowledge to be mastered by the end of each grade.

I would also make part of the language curriculum at least in grade 7 and 8
- teaching how to derive the main ideas from a text, including larger texts (let’s say even 20-30 pages)
- how to summarize
- how to take notes

I think very few kids today know how to take notes well due to a combination of factors:
- poor mechanics when writing and lack of practice in writing fast
- issues with spelling
- since a lot of kids have been praised for giving answers that are not necessary good, fully correct answers but for any answer that’s somehow related to the question posed they don’t know how to figure out what’s essential and what is not when somebody speaks. Most likely they would write down the words that stick out the most.

Posted by fromEurope on 01/15 at 11:24 PM

Well stated Europe, and how I wished over the years, one or two parents on my side in my small rural community seeing the damage being done in our public schools.

“Not only she says nothing of substance in my opinion, but by appearing everywhere in the news saying these platitudes that feel good she delays parents to take action first to help their own kids - hey, if everything is mostly good, it must be my own kid’s fault -  and then to fundamentally change the current system.”

I would like to extend this line of thought, in reference to parents’ actions and how the current feel good messages from all parts of the public education system, impacts parents’ actions.

My own personal experience, I lost family and friends support in the very beginning because they believed the good feel messages of the public school system. As I trudge alone in improving my child’s learning at home and school, I faced the attitudes of assigning blame on myself or the child, and if not that encouragement of accepting my child’s limitations. A major factor that was being played out is the old wife’s tale, that school knows what is best for all children, and no one else outside the education system should question the benevolence and wisdom of the public education system.

Some parents like myself, put on their armour, and go forth into battle. If one read the LD sites, one will find talk about LD parents describing their battle scars. Other parents will send their children off to private tutoring to overcome the deficiencies of a public education, but still support the public education system by remaining quiet about their reasons for private tutoring. Other parents, will think it is their duty to help the public education system, by providing the missing parts in a public education that Europe have stated. Yet, the majority of parents remain loyal to the messages of the public education system, until high school. By that time, parents become weary of the feel good messages. It explains the difficulties of high schools where parental involvement drops like a leaded balloon, achievement rates, and the various levels that run the gambit in basic reading, writing and numeracy.

And as Europe has stated, “Here’s why I think Annie is doing more bad than good regardless of her intentions (which may well be good and sincere.)
She seems to say that what we have today is mostly good and just needs a bit of tweaking. A bit more attentive parents, a few more books in the school libraries, a bit more pleasure in school.”

So very true, based on my own experiences, Kidder and others promote the lies that is repeated over and over in the public education system until the lies become the truth. When a parent questions the lie that has become the truth, it is relatively easy in today’s education system to bury their concerns, with the help of Kidder and others.

Taking it to a more personal note, when I became concern about my youngest development of speech, and by the age of 15 months, my child was being tested for a number of disorders, to my surprise it was my neighbours and family that was objecting to the very idea of subjecting my child to testing. They more or less called it a hardship imposed on my child, for various reasons. And when I decided to request a psycho-educational assessment when my child was in grade one, once again I was faced with the hardship argument among my neighbours, friends, and family in a different province. The reasoning that is beneath the hardship argument, children are in need of no help when a child appears to have all their limbs attached and does not look sickly. In the world of public education, children will somehow become good in reading, writing and numeracy without the need of learning the mechanics in basic reading and writing, because that imposes a hardship unto children.  Much like the hardship that I imposed unto my child, because according to the neighbours, friends and family she would have started talking eventually without the intensive speech therapy.

Posted by Nancy on 01/16 at 10:19 AM
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