Interesting article in NY Times, notwithstanding all the hype and support, charter schools are underperforming.

Charters are no answer to the problem because choice is not the issue. Excellence and equity are the issues.

Right and we’ll have neither without some incentive to get them.  Choice leads to equity and excellence.

So, the teacher/organizer was chanting—‘we need to run; we need to sing’ etc.  How could she miss the fact that—the kids need to read; the kids need to write; the kids need to have a good grasp of their math; etc.
All of the other programmes definately have value, but not when a child is so lacking in literacy and numeracy skills that they can’t function in the real world…
Bring on the charter schools.  As Doretta says ‘choice leads to equity and excellence’!

There is no connection between choice and excellence whatsoever. Charter schools are full of fly-by-night fraudsters. Google charters and fraud. It goes on for pages. Their academic level is below PS on the average.

Actually there is.  Check your phone bill lately?Compare it to your cable bill or hydro for that matter.  Not that phone service is perfect, but it is surely better for a consumer to have more choices than none.  In the market for a car?  TTC anyone?

Where schools have had to face parental choices, they have stepped up to the plate to try to improve.  They don’t always do a perfect job, and some never try at all—much to the detriment of their students—but at least some effort is made to get better results on whatever indicator is made transparent.

Yes there is, Doug.  It’ll take time for choice to really begin showing excellent student achievement, just as it took decades to pull our public ed system down to the low student achievement levels that we have today—it didn’t happen over night either.
Remember, I experienced school choice when I lived in both Tokyo and Singapore, where choice was well-established.  In Singapore, we finally decided on a school by looking at the school yearbooks:  the children looked happier in the school we chose   In other words, they were all excellent!
Also the school we chose was suffering financially and on the verge of closing—they bent over backwards!  The teachers did an excellent job, and my son, who was worked to death by his teacher, used to come home and say to me ‘I’m so happy with my life!’  (Seven year-olds don’t know they’re working hard—they’re like sponges when it comes to learning.)  I’m still deeply grateful to the staff at these schools (which were businesses btw).  In comparison, over here, the union-run monopoly was, I don’t like to say it but, not at all good.
By the time my grandchildren are ready for school, if the voucher system isn’t yet established, I’ll take a business model for my grandchildren any day over our current union-run monopoly…

No doubt the usual suspects will go into more fits of hysteria.  I’m always amazed how people who claim to be in the business of helping people think and make their own decisions move heaven and earth to try and impose their worldview on everyone else.  Why shouldn’t parents be given considerable say over the schools their kids attend?  Making it financially impossibe for them to do so reeks of the class bias one of our noisier contributors keeps lamenting.

It doesn’t do the status quo much good to see of the so-called “rubber rooms” in New York where hundreds of teachers sat around, banned from classrooms and on full pay while disciplinary issues are working their way through the system.

Worth repeating,
“The teachers did an excellent job, and my son, who was worked to death by his teacher, used to come home and say to me ‘I’m so happy with my life!‘  (Seven year-olds don’t know they’re working hard—they’re like sponges when it comes to learning.)  I’m still deeply grateful to the staff at these schools (which were businesses btw).  In comparison, over here, the union-run monopoly was, I don’t like to say it but, not at all good.”

Oh how I wish, that my child was work to death, that would have come home, and say, “I am so happy with my life”.  Instead, I heard, her say,No one lets me do anything, they all say I am too stupid…”, sobbing in between the words. Words often directed at the kids, in the group activities, but sometimes at the teachers. She learn how to hate school, and learning was associated with things she did not do well, as in her mind. I had to undo the damage, before I could re-teach her, in the correct manner
. Now she loves learning, providing the prior knowledge, connections are taught, before discussions on some question about your feelings.
Yes, choice if there was choice in my community, I be the first one to go to the alternative. I am all for the voucher system within the public school system, where a parent can choose what is best for their children and learning needs. And not the current model, where some learn that difficulties, is a sign of being stupid.

Nancy, I’ve seen the damage here in Ontario that is done to children in our public ed system.  Many children’s lives are ruined. 
Believe me, it’s not a pure black and white issue: the schools in Asia that my children went to weren’t perfect, nor were the schools here completely bad, but I was sorely disappointed in our school system here, and could never get excited about anything my kids did here.  The union was and still is too strong and admin turned a deaf ear.  Consequently the kids are the ones who pay the price.  What’s the saying ‘Society is judged by how it treats its most vulnerable.’?  We, here in Canada, rather than patting ourselves on the back, while bragging about how wonderful we are, need to start dealing with the things which desperately need to be changed.

I returned a certificate my child received from her teacher because it had spelling mistakes on it. I felt bad for the teacher who seemed not to know there was an error in her spelling. She had NO IDEA, and upon my request issued another one with me helping her spell the two wrongly spelled words.

Our kids are being taught by graduates of whole language who themselves don’t know any better. Are we now educating students in their image?

Nothing is a black and white issue. Many shades of gray. Within that, the key is to know what is true and what are the lies. What is quality, and what is poor quality?  Often hard to do in an education system, where the main arms of education, are insisting, and a matter of practice their way is the only true way. Add the political messages that are filtered through the public education system. and we have a mess. The mess, that a lot of parents are dealing with in many homes across the country, lacking the knowledge that often are denied to us, so we followed their ways.

I see it in so many contexts, the low-income parent fuming at the school, because little Suzie is not doing well, because her parents are sitting on welfare, and are not providing a good example for little Suzie to promote the conditions for learning. Than the tears come, all I want is my child to learn how to read and write. In my case, it was blame squarely on my parenting abilities, and I too was crying, all I want is my child to learn to read and write.

The latest example, in the newspaper where science and education meets at the crossroads, to deliver new reasons why the little Suzies and Johnnies are not learning to read. ” Linda Pagani, the professor and researcher at Universite de Montreal and Sainte Justine who headed the study, said their findings illustrate how the bad habits of a lifetime take root long before children set foot in a classroom, influencing everything from how well they do in math to the odds they’ll be bullied during recess. “We found every additional hour of TV exposure among toddlers corresponded to a future decrease in classroom engagement and success at math, increased victimization by classmates ... a more sedentary lifestyle, higher consumption of junk food and, ultimately, higher body mass index,” Ms. Pagani said.

Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/story.html?id=2984069#ixzz0n5Eky9OT

This will be the latest information to come into the homes of the wee ones, to condition the parents when their wee ones are ready for school, the parents would be more willing to accept the school’s reasons why their child is doing poorly in school. Reasons, that never ever look critically at their own teaching methodologies, that do play the biggest role, why children are failing to become good readers and writers.

You are making my point Nancy. Poor kids come to school with a vocabulary of only one half of middle class kids, in other words they are way behind due to their family conditions, not the school. Poverty is simply like this. It acts as a dead weight on kids learning futures in many ways. I have said repeatedly that an excellent school experience can mitigate these effects somewhat but we really need to eliminate poverty totally at the same time we improve public schools.

John the reason you cannot have school choice paid for by the public is because the public does not want you to have it as is shown in election after election and poll after poll.

The parents of public schools want every single dollar that is available for education to be spent on public schools. Ask John Tory, he will tell you why.

I’d hope there’d be some pretty serious discussion on the ethics of a teacher recruiting young kids to participate in a rally of this sort.  As a general rule people in a position of influence or authority, particularly over children, should be very careful about trying to recruit them to campaign on an issue.  How much info were they given on all matters to be considered on this?  I suspect the positions weren’t cut just to be mean to students.

Who said the teachers recruited students to do anything? Lot of speculation on your part.

Are you kidding, Mr. Little?

Doug, you miss my entire point, parents do not want to hear that is a social factor, or the way parents raise their children, as the reason they are failing. The public education system, uses social reasons for the failures of the system. It is very handy to blame the failure to learn on societal problems, that no one has any control over, with any effective means to prevent it. But if children received well-rounded education, with a solid foundation in the basic 3 Rs, and where learning of new knowledge is applied through the basic 3 Rs, they will graduate with the life skills, that they have the ability to find effective solutions that will fit in their value structure and knowledge. They become independent thinkers, without the reliance and dependency on authority structures, telling them what their needs are, and provide solutions, that often do not work.

It is here, the public education system teaches children that their actions must benefit the whole group, even if that means, they go without the proper reading instruction. There is many children in the SE classes, getting 100 %, and parents request often to have these children to be taught one to one instruction, or in very small group setting, and follow the regular curriculum. It is often denied, on the basis that the other children in the SE class, would be hurt by lowering their self-esteem. If not that reason, it is this one, it would be unfair for your child to received one to one instruction, when the other children in the regular classroom, do not have that option.

The public education system, have lost their way a long time ago. The needs of the individual child are no longer a priority, but sure comes in handy at times of strikes, when you want the sympathy of the public.

Interesting

  How many years are charter schools, individually and as a group, usually given to prove themselves before being called a failure?  Their detractors seem quick to write them off as failures so I’m pretty surprised to see that we should, apparently give some of them time to establish a track record.

One hopes there’s an even playing field, right?

True, I guess dozens of kids could spontaneously show up, signs in hand, and, coincidentally,  have a teacher leading the chants.  Mind you I’m just a crazy speculatin’ sorta guy.

That is interesting John. Every charter should have more time to prove themselves except the one run by Stanford because it uses liberal approaches so it should be shut down. Which is it?

Nancy, you can say parents don’t want to her about any SES factors but the evidence is simply overwhelming that education success is almost totally congruent to economic class. It simply doesn’t matter if you or anyone else actually like it, it is a fact.

That’s the point; the same peoople who simply trash “charter schools” suggest that the problem is that the “Stanford charter” was simply not given enough time.

Which is it, indeed?

You don’t seem to realize that many of these charter schools have been around for many years now John. You really need to look at the research yourself. They simply cannot educate at the same level as the local PS even with many advantages. It is time to declare both charters and vouchers as failures and move on to helping public schools.

“Who said the teachers recruited students to do anything?”

“True, I guess dozens of kids could spontaneously show up, signs in hand, and, coincidentally,  have a teacher leading the chants.  Mind you I’m just a crazy speculatin’ sorta guy.”

We don’t have to go to the USA for teacher led and recruited protests. Why right here in Ontario it happened in Toronto, remember Doug and teachers told the kids that they could count the hours spent in protest as their volunteer hours? Were you on the TDSB board then?

I didn’t know that, notasheep.  No matter how much I learn, I’m still shocked sometimes.  They are not teaching the children our values.  These people should not be around our children at all.

That is because only about 20% of the population shares your values.

There’s more Bev.
Depending on the political leanings of school administrations and boards students may also use volunteering for political campaigns as volunteer hours.

Is it fair and equitable to all parties? Of course not.

We even have to watch those Gr. 10 Civics classes that allow candidates to come into schools during a campaign. There are rules to govern the fairness of things like presentation but as I found out schools have ways of supporting their preferred candidate.

Mr. Little earlier in this blog you denied that teachers used the students for their political gain, and now you imply that it’s OK that teachers do the same, and even add that 80% of the population supports our children being used this way.
In my eyes, the world’s most honourable profession has become morally bankrupt.
You know that you’re twisting things in order to try and keep the myth that teachers put students first, alive and well.
Mr. Little you have done a lot of good on this blog, by showing all of us just how dishonourable the union is.  Perhaps deep down this is what you really feel a need to do…

Read it again Bev, nobody said that.

Undemocratic.  It brings to mind the film footage of young students in China extolling the vitures of their government while damming the Americans.
Well, it’s up to the parents.  I sat on school council during the time when Harris was in power and told the principal that the petitions to unseat the Tories had to be removed from the school, along with those silly green ribbons.  I also repeatedly had to tell the principal to stop the teachers from using class time to push their hated views of the Tories.  Public, tax dollar supported institutions should show no political bend.

Those green ribbons helped get rid of the worst government Ontario has ever seen, especially for education where they removed $2 billion dollars that really damaged kids.

Parents simply vote for no strife in the school system. They believe we should all work together but nobody can work with the Tories.

I agree, you didn’t actually come out and say it, but it’s what you strongly imply by denying that there was anything to prove that the teachers were involved in rallying the students for their benefit.

Those green ribbons did not belong on the property of public institutions.  Yes, you and yours won, Mr. Little, but that doesn’t make you morally right.  What the world’s most honourable profession now stoops to is shameful.

If I recall, the green ribbons began around the time of the Bill 160 illegal strikes in 1997 during Harris’ first term.  The PCs were elected with a second majority despite the green ribbons.

Sometimes it takes 2 elections to pull down a tyrant but the seeds were sown with Bill 160. The public supported the teachers in all the polls but the opposition was divided over 2 parties. Finally in the second election in 2003, many NDPers decided that Harris (Eves by then)  was just too reactionary to survive.

Politicians need to learn that if major strike break out during a term, the politician will not be reelected even if the public sides with the politician which, in this case they did not. Harris, David Miller, Sam Sullivan, Vancouver Mayor, all had major strikes which led to their demise.

Message from the public to the politician, “you must solve these problems without strikes.If legal strikes happen, the political leader has failed..”

Again, if you recall, Harris did not run for a third term. So this idea of “tyrant” is ridiculous hyperbole.  I know of many people who voted PC for the first time BECAUSE of Harris.  So when he left, they didn’t support the PCs.
People sometimes just get tired of governments, economies change, etc.  They will get tired of this one too and the next one whatever it is.  Even the Brits voted out the great hero Churchill after the war.  That’s just the way it goes.

I wonder what Premier Williams would think of your musings?  The teachers never went on strike, they took the template, as the rest of the public service did. Take it, or go on strike, and received far less than what was in the template.

Good for Premier Williams, Nancy.  No wonder he’s so wildly popular. 
With our huge defecit/debt (thanks to Dalton) the public sector here will have to be brought back to wages, benefits, pensions, and working hours which are more in line with the private sector sooner or later.  It’ll be like Greece I bet, which is being called the canary in the coal mine—interesting to watch… 
Do you notice that when the Ontario teachers’ unions and the rest of the public sector get their puppets elected i.e.:  Bob Rae and Dalton, these puppets are so busy genuflecting to the unions that they don’t look at the rest of the economy—no vision whatsoever—and we end up in a sea of red ink.
I hope Dalton gets re-elected so that he can clean up his own mess.  The teachers’ unions will not be kind to him—again, it’ll be interesting to watch…

Someone will have to, whatever party gets in. The aftermath of HST, the Ontario residents will soon find out, on the everyday items, prices will go up. It will hurt the middle-class more than any other group. I hope the school boards are prepare for the increases in expenses regarding HST, as well as the cities and towns. Than we have the public service unions in Ontario. They will be hard-pressed to find sympathy among the general public. Between HST and interest rates on mortgage, with many ordinary working people whose salaries do not reflect or even kept up to the cost of living, there will be no sympathy on their part.
As for Harris, which I never did like any of his policies, because most of them were targeted at the low to to low middle-class income group. Williams, has many different type of policies directed at his citizens starting at the $35,000 cut-off point. His secret, is to keep all of his citizens happy, by producing policy that is directed at the greatest needs, rather than giving people what they wanted. He has manage to make effective change in the public school system, but many of the changes that have taken place, is to rebuild the foundation of the system. As parents we only see small improvements, and most often it is hidden. In my opinion, between the boards and the unions, this is NL’s biggest problem, in reforming the public education system. But keep in mind, it is comparing apples to oranges, Ontario and NL each have their own unique set of circumstances and problems. Starting with our unions are not as militant as Ontario’s are. Plus the teachers have a bit more leeway, without enforcers coming in the school to ensure compliance of following the curriculum. I can honestly say, that would be war in rural NL, if it should ever become policy.

You seem to forget Bev that there was this little incident called the world wide recession caused by greed on Wall Street. Bush in the USA and Harris/Eves left a huge deficit that they tried to hide until the 2003 election was over. Conservatives talk a good game on deficits but in reality they are worse that the Liberals. Paul Martin cleaned up Mulroney’s debt and Harper is right back in massive debt but I suppose his debt is ok its Dalty’s debt that is the bad one.

Recall the Harris-sanctioned audits of the TDSB, Ottawa-Carleton and Hamilton-Wentworht Boards?

It turns out all three, forever claiming a budget problem,  were spending all sorts of money in a rather questionable manner.  Pouring more money in to offset questionable spending isn’t sending a great message.  On the issue of McGuinty he’s been pouring money into education, at a time when the number of kids is diving.

I suspect “education” and “healthcare” will always claim to be in some sort of financial “crisis” no matter how much is dumped in.

It is a funny cyclical conservative argument. First, money does not buy a better education system. Second, Toronto and Ottawa and other cities have a rich tax based so they can raise more money and their citizens approve of it. Mr Harris, you must take a lots of money from Toronto and Ottawa and give it out here in the boonies where we really don’t believe money buys a good system but we want a lot of Toronto’s money for our schools just the same. Conservatives are the first ones at the trough if there is any money to hand out.

When I was on the school board the conservative trustees constantly demanded that we close some under enroled schools. We said “OK but Rosedale elementary and Forest Hill elementary are the most underenroled schools in the system, lets close them first.” Since they were the 2 richest schools the conservatives shut up really fast.

Every time they demanded a cut we demanded that the cut only apply to the schools in the wards that voted for it. As you can imagine, they were quite frustrated by this. The gallery and the press could see through the hypocracy.

On the school closings, I don’t disagree with you about the hypocrisy either.  Trustees are very territorial.

TDSB still gets lots of money and spends lots of money:  http://www.sunshineonschools.ca

Funny it was not just the trustees with Rosedal and Forest Hill in their wards. In those days there were 14 leftwing votes on the board and 12 right wing votes. Only 4 were from the Rosedale?Forest Hill 2 wards but 100% of them would not entertain the idea of closing the Richie Rich $chools.

We put it down to the fact that they would not be welcome at the RCYC or Glen Abbey CC or the Granite Club similar.

Champagne socialists?

I can certainly understand how, say, excessive absenteeism is a direct result of the conditions in Toronto, Ottawa and Hamilton.  How the money spent covering excessive absenteeism provides any benefit to kids…? 

There were all sorts of similar cases where it had little or nothing to do with spending funds to provide a better quality, rather it was about maintaining the way “things are always done”.

Apparently Harris believed kids in “the boonies” were entitled to a good quality education, even if it meant moving some money from wealthier jurisdictions.  Governments routinely use transfers to level the quality of life for citizens.  Most folks know that.

I don’t see much “progressive” about putting kids in the cities on a different level than those elsewhere.

John, you are not getting my point. The same people who say, money doesn’t matter to quality education, are the same people who say you must give us some of Toronto and Ottawa’s money because they have too much and we don’t have enough.

It is highly hypocritical to take both positions at the same.

There’s nothing hypocritical. 

Audits indicated that large sums were spent in an inefficient or inappropriate manner.  Sending more taxpayer funds to organizations which aren’t willing to redress misuse of what is already being give isn’t on. 

How does tolerating excesive absenteeism correlate to improved learning for kids?  There’s lots of money floating around schoolboards if, a big IF, it is spent effectively.

Not to mention, the high-priced help, well over $100,000, and than the second level well pass $80,000. I don’t know about other parents, can anyone really talk to any of these people at the board level, within one phone call. It is easier to get hold of ministry staff, at least there you get a bit of service.

One little problem of a bus issue took two months to solve. I finally got fed up, phone up the ministry of education, found out who had the final say in bus transportation, and than they patched me though. You should of heard him swear, than he apologized to me, and said my problem will be fix within hours. It was, but when I receive a phone call, the local board was not too please, that I would go to bother of going that high, we were working on it. To say the least, I blasted them. They moved my child’s bus stop, and I requested to remain where she was. “But I can’t do that, the bus stop you want is 10 metres further than the assigned bus stop. I wanted the former, because of some difficulties with some kids. I got my way, and than two days later, the principal phones, who is suppose to have the final say, on local bus transportation, but never had carry out that duty.. He said, you have the use of the two bus stops, and if you are late, you catch the bus at the last bus stop. Now I had 3 bus stops. No doubt, the high-level ministry staff-person had probably given him a phone call.

The point is, if people at the board level, spent less time making everyone is adhering to the rules and regulations, and more time on problem solving, and efficient service, for the users of the system. At least it would create a step toward a two-way conversation. I often found the board where conversation is only in one direction. That said, this may not save any money. but it might open the parents eyes, questioning their jobs and duties.

Wait until the next report of $100 000 when almost half the teachers in Ontario go over the line. These wages are no considered the least bit high in the biz Nancy.

One person’s waste is another parent’s absolute necessity. No nation progresses by being cheap in its education expenditure. It is penny wise and pound foolish.

That’s not true at all.

  Money spent covering excessive absenteeism is money not available for building upkeep, Special Ed, textbooks or anything else.

You’d be hardpressed to find anyone who’d consider spending inefficiently or wastefully an “absolute necessity”, rather its depriving kids to accomodate unacceptable performance on the part of adults.

The absenteeism and the decline in EC Activities is the result of the intensification of outcomes based education, testing, etc.

If you push it in here it sticks out there. Attempts to get more work out of the same number of people always end this way.

New demands literally making people sick. All highly predictable

Not really.

  The absenteeism rates were too high across the workforce as a whole,  a group of tens of thousands of people in the case of the TDSB.

I was there John. I know why they went up. It is called “do more with less” the answer is always the same, you get less with less.

Nonsense. I went to Catholic schools decades ago and we did better with a LOT less.  Still do.

Decades ago catholic students did very much worse in your day Doretta, before the funding was redistributed and the extension.

I am not guessing here Doretta. The TBE did every student surveys way back then and students who attended catholic schools did far worse in school. They were much more likely to be found in lower stream programs, graduated less often and went to university less often. This ended after they were given equal funding.

I beg to differ, Doug. Being Catholic, depended on the area. Often the Catholic schools were superior to the public schools, because of large concentration of Catholics. If it was a smaller concentration of Catholics, the public schools were better. This was due to how it was funded, through property tax. It was when the system change, the inequities straighten themselves out, between Catholic and public schools. If you took the time out, and read the history of the development of both the Catholic and public schools, the governments of the day, anyone would come down to the conclusion that Catholic schools did an amazing job, working with far less.

And Doug, I expect anyone earning a huge salary, at the board level, especially those who are in charge of programing, to know a few things about topics like working memory, visual memory, and the other things that are tied up with how an individual learns. Many of them know nothing about the science in behind it, and if they did, that is not their goals. The goals are to save money on school supplies, or some other administration goals. For example, 40 work problems on a sheet of paper, instead of 10 to 25 work problems, will drop the number of paper sheets used by the school. What happens, are teachers are doing more with less, but also the students are doing more with less.

I make no bones, when it comes to the lack of knowledge at the board level, when it comes to the science of learning. By ignoring it, it creates more waste, and it shows up in every single classroom and in the achievement rates. And let’s not forget the trustees, another level of bureaucracy, with various levels of knowledge and the tendency to make decisions based on paper stats, and rarely going beyond the numbers on paper. If an business person, made decisions just on the numbers, and ignoring the reasons behind the numbers, the possibility of losing the business would be the likely outcome. But with boards, no matter how many mistakes are made, how many blunders, they are rarely accountable for the outcomes of bad policies. This creates even more waste, and what usually happens the schools and the kids are the ones who are paying for it, in the lack of resources, bad curriculum, and the list goes on.

And Doug,  you are always talking about the Toronto board. Toronto has their own unique set of circumstances, as do other boards. Sometimes common sense do not exist in Toronto, or other large cities. Often policies created at the city boards, and filters down to the smaller towns, may not be effective, or in a lot of cases does not applied in their case. Another problem, is that the Toronto board is the closest to the ministry of education, and where the pilot and other programs are run first, before they move out into the outer regions. What may work for a city kid, living in a high-rise, may not be effective for another kid living in a smaller city, where few live in high-rises.

Giving more, in salaries, will still not change their goals, their mind is fixated on costs without consideration of the future negative and positive impacts at the lowest level, the schools and the children. Nor would it promote in gaining knowledge on the science of learning and education, and using this knowledge where the knowledge is factor in for policy.

With all due respect “d"oug, you really don’t know what you are talking about.  We are not that far apart in age and you were likely a student at the time I’m talking about.  The schools acheived better or same results on far less money.

Catholic should be capitalized.

The every student survey at the TBE proved that catholics did not do anywhere nearly as well as students who went to public elementary schools. As I siad this was proof. They were far more often in lower stream secondary programs and were more often drop-out. I hate to burst your bubble on that one Doretta but uniforms and religion did not help. It was not until full funding that catholics caught up and now it is roughly even.

I’m talking about a time much longer ago. Sorry, the uniforms, discipline, and higher standards did help.  You really have no experience of what I’m talking about.  Case closed.