There is a wonderful line in the linked article:  “Fundamentally, education consists of what is taught (curriculum), how it’s taught (methodology) and who teaches it (teacher competence).”

Quite true.  But using a tool like Khan Academy or Jump Math to teach mach pulls the curriculum and methodology components out of the “teacher’s competence” requirement.  All we really need from teachers is a patient, optimistic and encouraging affect. 

Of course, tomorrow’s professionals are getting proper math training from their tutors, so maybe it doesn’t matter.

You CANNOT just impose the Asian math curriculum on Ontario for example and expect their results.

The go to school 50 days per year longer than Ontario in terms of hours. Tell Ontario parents you propose that. Put your hat in on a stick.

They use math specialist teachers from primary (varies by Asian country). I support this but I am a distict minority here.

Asian kids tend to return to school evenings for supervised homework and extra help. This is public in many systems but private hagwon in places like Korea.

You cannot pick one aspect of the Asian math system. It is basically an all or nothing proposition. I’m afraid Ontario parents, teachers and students would all reject an Asian model for math.

To top if off their is very little reason to do it. There is no direct relationship between math results and economic growth or prosperity. The USA has terrible international scores in math but still has a far more dynamic innovative economy than almost all Asian nations.

1) Doug, so still, why can’t Ontario trained, certified, professional teachers teach basic math?

After all they are professionals, highly paid, carefully selected. Are we saying that subject matter expertise does matter after all? How about grammar, how about geography, how about science?
What exactly stops the faculties of education from teaching subject matter expertise or making it a criteria for admission to teacher’s college?
5 years of university should be more than enough to be able to become competent in a few subjects.

2) Doug, unlike you we don’t want to impose our views on anybody.
As much as I profoundly dislike the current elementary education in Ontario because it produces incompetent students and handicaps most of them for life, I firmly believe that the parents should have the most say in their children’s education.

Therefore, let’s just have a few public charter schools or a few experimental public schools in GTA using Singapore math or a “traditional” math (math that teaches the standard algorithms and where students actually solve problems not just talk about them).
The only persons allowed to teach math there would be people who want to teach there and who pass math competency tests. 

There will be huge lineups for these schools; both for the student spots and the teacher spots.

There is quite a number of teachers originally trained as teachers in other countries that have become teachers here and who would welcome the prospect of teaching content and mastery.

Why don’t we try?
After all public education should serve the public.

Malkin’s suggestion is a very good one.

It’s time to go back to common sense: use sensible methods (including drill) to instill the fundamentals of math in every student and then move along the math sequence at a brisk and steady pace, such that all students can keep up and achieve a high level of competence.

The Asian math teaching methods are just some example of what works.

Schools in Ontario a generation ago seem to have done a good job; I met a lot of older people who are very competent at math. Perhaps there are older, clear, sequential curricula and textbooks that could be revisited.
Or we could choose Jump Math, which is logical, homegrown and is the only method, philosophy that takes into account the situation in Ontario: the need to train the teachers in math and the need to address classrooms where the students are at vastly different skill levels. Jump Math does require homework.

Or we could choose Spirit of Math. Again homegrown, logical, sequential, proven results. TDSB was offered the curriculum years ago for free. They refused to implement it. It is now a thriving business which produces students competent in math. If started from grade 1 and if the students put in the work required, Spirit of Math is for every student. However Spirit of Math does require competent teachers and does require homework.

“University of Winnipeg mathematics professor Anna Stokke has summed up the folly of discovery learning: “If they don’t know their math facts, they won’t be able to do algebra, which means calculus is out, which means they can’t be engineers, doctors, pharmacists, economists, programmers or any other discipline that requires math, including skilled trades work. But the one thing they can become? Teachers.”

The typical response from the education establishment - “To top if off their is very little reason to do it. There is no direct relationship between math results and economic growth or prosperity. The USA has terrible international scores in math but still has a far more dynamic innovative economy than almost all Asian nations.”

A distraction - a red herring to throw everyone off what the real consequences of having nations with well over half of the adult population with weak numeracy levels and math knowledge. Professor Stokke cites the one side of the coin. On the other side of the coin, the consequences of low numeracy and math skills are much graver and insidious, harming the very fabric of democracy. People with lower skills in math and numeracy are far less effective in their everyday lives to determined the squared footage to purchased carpeting, to make sense of the numbers in the newscasts, to filing out the income tax forms and a common sight today, a cashier who can’t count out change or figure out a discount.

Two stories - “The effect of poor numeracy on people’s lives is often much less obvious than poor literacy. But there is substantial evidence that low numeracy skills are associated with poor outcomes for many people. This has a negative impact on them and their families – and on society as a whole.”  http://www.nationalnumeracy.org.uk/why-is-numeracy-important/index.html

And here - “Skills must become a new global priority”, says Angel Gurria, Secretary General Organization for Economic cooperation and Development (OECD). High level skills of the working age population, such as working with texts, numbers, and ICT (Information and communication technology) for solving problems are considered to be the essentials for adult individuals in order to fully integrate into labor market, and actively participate and cope with the increasing requirements within.” 

United States like other Western countries have been coping with only approximately 30 % of their population having high numeracy skills, since the industrial age of the 19th century. Along came the public education model to educate the masses in the latter half of the 19th century, where the educationalists more or less followed along the same lines, ensuring approximately 30 % of public students would high skills in numeracy and mathematics. The other 70 % would have a firm foundation in arithmetic skills that are used in everyday life and work places. At some point in the last half of the 20th century, the education establishment moved to dropping the skills of arithmetic as not being necessary for the 70 % of students in a world where calculators, computers could do all that work, and therefore no need to spend time on memorizing, drills and mastery. It suited the crowd of the education establishment with the many hidden agendas at play, discovery learning was firmly entrenched in the public education system by the 1990s.

Today, 55 % of Canadian adults have low numeracy skills.  The world nations can no longer operate under the 30 % rule as it was in the 19th century. The complexity of the world has grown a thousand fold, and we need 95 to 97 % of the citizens with solid foundations in basic, advanced arithmetic skills along with basic algebra skills and good literacy skills, if one wants to save democracy and put the economy back in good proper order.

Pity - the public education systems has hidden agendas to prevent 95 to 97 % of the population to have fair to good skills in numeracy and literacy. It really is all about dumbing down the education of students to advanced the hidden agendas while parents picks up the costs for tutoring or do it themselves. 

There is a direct connection between numeracy/literacy skills to economic prosperity.  http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2013/08/hanushek_on_edu_3.html

And here - http://educationnext.org/education-and-economic-growth/

That is another complex story, but Doug and the rest of education establishment would like us to think that there is no correlation between numeracy/literacy skills and economic prosperity.

To Europe,

There is no pressing need to do anything different. There is no outcry, there is no demand for public charter schools, there is no shortage of engineers, scientists, or similar and whenever their is we import more Asians. Go check out Waterloo itself where the Blackberry bubble just burst.

There simply is no pressing need. We are #7 of real nations in the world, #6 in science and do it in 50 days less than the Asians.

I don’t count Singapore, Macao, Hong Kong, and Shanghai. I will take PRC China seriously when they enter the entire nation. Everybody knows the Korean secret, Canadians will not accept hagwons.

Japan is the only comparable nation and they have been in a recession for 20 years. In my book this makes us about number 3-4 in the entire OECD universe of 65 countries.

Nobody in serious educational positions believes we have a curriculum or pedagogical problem.

To Doug,

There is a very serious problem when high school graduates know so little math that they cannot be sure about daily living decisions.

There is also a very serious problem when our students avoid or cannot get into technical fields that have a future because they cannot compete with foreign-educated students.

There is tremendous demand for schools that work, for teaching and curriculum that works. Why do Kumon and Sylvain and tutors have so many students?

Your extremely conservative and socially irrresponsible point of view: we can always import educated labour simply shows how little the education decision makers like you care about the students’ future.

Well said, Europe. This one is to Doug, the WISE math web site has been busy over the Christmas holidays, with new members joining. Below is the latest comments -

“Currently I am the head chef in my own restaurant, but graduated from college with a degree in Computer Systems Analysis and Design. I have had only one person out of 40 between the ages of 16 to 30 that could do simple math we need to use in the kitchen. Not sure what the problem is but there is definitely a problem.”

“I’m so discouraged by the state of our math education and frustrated by the lack of response I get from most of my son’s teachers! I find it astounding that any educational institution can find fault with practice to become proficient!”

“Christine Taylor. Airdire ab. I’m angry that in grade three I already have to pay for private tutoring for my son. It’s ridiculous. I dread math homework and so does my son. It is completely zapping his confidence in all other areas. The gov is failing my son. Period.”

And this beauty - across Canada, flash cards are heavily discouraged by the education establishment. Routine practice by the educators, is to instruct the children to tell the parents they don’t do flash cards, drills or the standard algorithms, and don’t use old fashion terms such as borrowing or need to know the difference between the denominator and numerator.

“I was so surprised when we were working with our sons with math flash cards for memorization only to find out that they were told by the teachers that they don’t do that. This no fail policy, how do you know you succeeded if you don’t know failure?”

And finally - “Two boys age 3 and 5. A lady named Amaya Ortigosa was deemed in The Edmonton Journal as lead technocrat for K-9 math education in Alberta. She’s also quoted by TEJ as saying the following: ““Memorization doesn’t necessarily mean we understand what we’re doing, and we tend to not retain that learning long term.” If she really believes that, she needs a new line of work and that group she’s leading needs a major re-alignment.”
http://wisemath.org/join/

I hate to be the one to break this to you but nobody is listening.

Harder math earlier is a fools errand, it only causes more children to fail or get frustrated earlier.

Ontario has no stomach for what is necessary. Nothing to do with curriculm and pedagogy

Jump math has promise needs more look but it is discovery math as well

Primary specialist math teachers would help like Asia

50 days more per year is necessary to catch Asians. There is no support for this.

Canada #7 real nations #6 in science 65 nations.

No real problem. If you map the schools with low EQAO math scores 90% are poorer schools.

Some steps easy, some unlikely.

“90% of the variation in student test scores is due to the variations in student-level factors not under the control of the teacher”

US Department of Education.

* So Doug, low EQAO math scores are not a problem as long as they are in schools in poor areas. So much for your idea that schools matter!

* Actually a lot of parents in Ontario would want a change and would have the stomach for it.
It is very simple to test this: let’s have a few public charter schools and see how much demand there is for them. I would stand corrected if there was little demand.

I don’t understand. If you, Doug, and the education establishment are so sure of the parent are happy with the current situation why don’t you jump at the chance to prove your point, to ridicule all these people who just don’t get how good the current schools are?

Let the parents choose between a current school and a “traditional” school and see which students do better.
Offering alternatives is the only fair way for the education system to fulfill its role: serving the public.

* The parent who are happy with the current system, kudos to them! Let them continue to send their children to the schools they are happy with.

Jump Math is a very step-by-step, very logical method. If the author or you want to call it discovery to make it more palatable so much the better. It works. It has nothing whatsoever in common with the stupidity and incoherence of the approved math textbooks.

Personally I don’t think Jump Math goes far enough. But then again it’s aim is to match the Ontario curriculum and the Ontario curriculum has very low and vague expectations.
Anyway, I think it is a very good method and if applied in its spirit, it works well.

Oh Doug, I bet you get ripped off everyday lining up for your small cash purchases. Or even at the bigger stores, when it comes to discounts…....or perhaps you just don’t bother counting the tab at the restaurant, to check if the figures are correct?  You could be one of those types, to hand it to the person who still can add numbers up in their head, or at least can count. Of course, Siri of i-phone could check it, and that is if one knows how to expressed the numbers to Siri. Of course, Siri does have bad days, and just don’t want to compute the numbers, and tells you to do it yourself.

Jump Math has never been discovery learning. But if the public education establishment has its way, it may take 20 years - Jump Math will be pure discovery learning and won’t be worth the paper its written on. Don’t worry Doug, John Mighton won’t let that happen - he doesn’t need the public education establishment for two reasons. His company is a non-profit, and its steady sales between parents, groups and private schools.

Primary math specialists eh Doug? Would that be the same ones found at the school board level, who don’t know a whole lot but would certainly be fired within a day in an accounting position or even a cashier. They certainly be resenting to pay for the shortages and overages in the cash till at the end of day. You really are dreaming in Technicolor, if you think someone with a math degree are going to race to the teachers’ colleges. Already enough shortages of STEM teachers at the high school level, and far too many teachers teaching outside of their field.

Then there is the PISA results. What Doug does not want to talk about, is the nagging item of scores in reading, math and science. Instead of steady increases, it has been slow decline in scores since 2006. He always omits the inconvenient facts that gets in his way of revising the PISA results to his liking. Sort of like taking the C on a test, and changing it to a B, to keep the parents happy.

Always shaping the realities of the day, to the ideologies and beliefs according to the Gospel of Doug. To which brings me to one statement of Doug’s - 

“No real problem. If you map the schools with low EQAO math scores 90% are poorer schools.”

Low income schools, like high income school are outliers. The vast majority of schools in reality, are a mixture of high, middle to low income schools. It is across Canada and in every province. It is why Canada gets a high score on equity by the OECD.  However, what the education class never wants to talk about, is educating according to social-income class. Parents at all incomes are often surprise to learn the real reasons why their kids are not getting effective help at the schools to steadily achieved. What parents are never told, but it is repeated throughout their communication to the parents and the public, it is up to the parents to teach their children the knowledge and skills that the schools will no longer provide. The higher the income, the private tutors are used. For other parents, across the income line are parents with high personal knowledge banks and skill sets that are able to do it themselves and if they have the time.

Finally, this other myth or it soon will be a myth since cognitive science is now unraveling this little 19th century adage - “90% of the variation in student test scores is due to the variations in student-level factors not under the control of the teacher”  Its more like 20 % to 30 % and not the 90 % as Doug would like us to believed.

Doug, you really ought to get out more and maybe expand your horizons on the web. Go and check out WISE Math - the comments throughout are a stinging indictment on the math curriculum, instructional methods and the teachers’ set of math knowledge. There is absolutely no reason why 96 to 98 % of students should not be at level 3 minimum or higher, in numeracy, literacy and science, at the elementary levels.

Nancy`s comment-

“Finally, this other myth or it soon will be a myth since cognitive science is now unraveling this little 19th century adage - “90% of the variation in student test scores is due to the variations in student-level factors not under the control of the teacher”  Its more like 20 % to 30 % and not the 90 % as Doug would like us to believed. “

Of course!
It`s incredible that that theory still flies isn`t it?

How dumb can the public be to let the educrats dole this out as an excuse for poor achievement.
And as Tunya so frequently states,where`s the outrage and the consequences?