We had “Departmentals” and everybody hated them which is why they were abandoned. Thousands of students were forced to repeat grade 13 and then went on to a successful university career. The families all came to believe that the year repeated was a total waste of time. I have been in discussions with universities on this very topic due to my consulting. Even so-called “private” diploma mills, U of T is only really conserned about private schools, for foreign students, TOFEL/ELTS/COPE is the real gate keeper on thos not the kids marks.

They told us to our face, public and Catholic marks are pretty reliable. It is private school that we worry about.

Clearly what this study suggests is not new to students and their families who have been conned out an education.

The champions of the public system can spin the numbers all they wish but those supposedly number twos in the world drop like stones when reality sets in a post-secondary.

So, either fudging the numbers is the greatest Canadian conspiracy in the world, or the spinners and weavers of the myths that we’re doing well are blowing smoke.

Except though for those UOIT teachers grads who someone buck the trend of getting worse in university and instead get better. Another smoke and mirror game?  I’m thinking so.

Sometimes I really wish you did some research before you opine Chuck. Canada GRADUATES the most students from post secondary in the entire world. It is #4 in university graduates per age cohort behind the USA, Japan and Ireland.

The marks may drop as they do everywhere but the students graduate. No nation on this Earth does a better job.

Almost all the kids in Ontario are getting a great education just like your kids and mine Chuck. It is amazing how many were “just lucky” to get good teachers. Luckier than any other nation.

It doesn’t get any better than Canada today, anywhere on Earth at any time in history.

How about staying in context for once Doug? Neither of your offerings refers to the Malkin’s post which speaks to the MacLean’s article. I believe the MacLean’s article thanks very much.

Oh, and as you continue to see the glass half-full, I’m sure you’ll agree that when it comes to poverty the following article is also suggesting a half-full theory as it questions the methods, spin and numbers - and rightly so.

http://www.lfpress.com/comment/columnists/rory_leishman/2010/07/09/14664256.html

Well this is a first for you Chuck. At least you actually supplied some information for the first time I can ever remember.

All of my info on graduation rates are based on StatsCan. Do you have a better source?

You simply refuse to understand that Canada has one of the world’s best school systems and that almost all differences in achievement are based on income gaps. I know you want to believe there are other causes that fit your preconceived notions. It is just that all of your ideas about education are wrong.

Your reaction to the proof of this is “don’t try to dazzle me with the facts, my mind is made up.”

It simply doesn’t matter what you believe Chuck. You are wrong and the world knows you are wrong.

What is your answer to the FACT that Canada graduates more students from post secondry as a % of their age group than anyone else on Earth. Do you feel foolish now? You should.

I don’t know when the universities or the provincial government will learn that every time they raise the entrance requirements for their university, high school marks will rise until they both get to 100%.

The answer is a radical increase in university places rather than rationing them. We need to make it far earier and cheaper to go to university.

We seem to want 2 things at once. We want more university grads and we want to make it more difficult. Are we that stupid?

#1 Abolish tuition fees.

#2 Double the capacity of the universities ASAP.

Wow, we really made a lot of jobs of all types in the process.

The way to go on tuition

http://tuitionfreecolleges.mtnhome.org/free-universities/tuition-free-universities-europe.html

As it’s not up to you to pass judgment on anything posters contribute here Doug Little I advise Chucker to ignore you completely. Reading the invitation to engage here welcomes any and all comments and perspectives.

You seem to feel that the more you link the more real your myths become. Doesn’t take much effort to pull down links Doug Little.  I for one appreciate the experiences written about from most here.

Have fun talking to yourself.

Don’t worry, I will have a ball. I have recognized over and over that Chuck and John L. have no need to actually make a contribution. They are quite within their rights to just take cheap shots, The rules say there is no need to make a real contribution. Some have taken that quite literally.

When was your last serious contribution David?

My “myths” as you call them are documented by StatsCan, the OECD, PISA, TIMSS, enrolement data, and the opinions of acknowledged experts in the field, and yours are supported by….....?

I wonder how many of today’s graduates could pass the departmentals?  THAT would be interesting to see.

A few years ago, there was a British Channel 4 series called, That’ll Teach ‘Em where they put present day kids into several education scenarios from the 1950’s. http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/T/teachem/ or here:  http://thatllteachem.co.uk/
The series was broadcast in Ontario on TVO.

The teens chosen were students who were considered top of their class. When they were given a sample math test from the era, only 1 of the class passed, and barely at that.  They were then told that the test they failed was a Grade 5 test, it truly shocked them.  They thought they were the bees knees up to that point.  At the end of the series they wrote their O-levels to the same standard of marking that they would have faced in the 1950’s.

What was really interesting to me were the comments of their teachers, who had experienced in their own education, what their students were finding now very difficult.

Today’sstudents would need to be one year older and drilled on the expected questions on the departmentals as we were.

Todays students are far more literate than our generation.

A reminder that Doug speaks for himself and perhaps his teachers drilled for the departmentals but mine certainly did not. What was done was practice after the material was appropriately taught and several smaller tests done ahead of departments.

Worked fine for decades of students.

Across Ontario an entire generation my age will tell you they were drilled with sample question in many subjects for deparmental. At any rate they were deemed to be a failure and a waste of time so they were abolished.

Both my husband and eldest sister wrote their departmentals.  My husband in the last year that they were written.  They both did all their maths, sciences and languages (including four years of Latin).  I remember that the students who wrote their departmentals were put up on pedestals by everyone, and you could see how proud they were of themselves for accomplishing what they had! 

Doretta, I’m not the least bit surprised that the British kids couldn’t pass the 50’s courses.  Just looking at the literacy test results and hearing how lacking children are nowadays in numeracy skills,  I’m positive that despite the fact there are hard-working teachers, there’s no way that our graduates today wouldn’t pass the old grade 13 departmentals.

Providing extra help/remedial is a growing business on most universities these days so I guess they don’t know what gifted material they have coming in.

As to my “contribution” here I’ll take my chances.  It appears you’re the one most people find someting of a troll.

In any event if you’re not happy you’re not really needed here.

Work on you own site.