POSTED ON BEHALF OF DOUG

Naturally I favour the abolition of the RC system. It should not be the job of the taxpayer to subsidize religion. It is a private matter to be dealt with outside of school hours except as the study of religion. (World Religions)

The RC system for many years placed far more students on bottom stream public high schools than public schools did. That was not the fault of religion but the class composition of catholics at the time, Franco-Ontarians Italians and Portuguese were heavily streamed into tech.

Recent waves of immigration has led to something of a reversal to the point that the average income of public schools is now lower. This has led to a small reversal. There is today no significant difference in scores.

The UN condemns without taking into account the historical events and facts on the history of education concerning the individual countries. That said, in Canada the K to 12 education system came into being because of political will and consensus from the political powers divided between the Protestants and the Catholic of the mid-1800s when Canada became a nation in 1867.

Doug’s response, omits the historical facts while subtly inferring the old historical discrimination and prejudiced lines of Catholics being second-classed citizens by the Ontario Protestants because the French lost the war to the British. The British got the prize of Canada and the French got the door prizes. One of the door prizes was the right of Catholics entitled to a Catholic education under the Constitution Act - 1867.  Article 93 - http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/ca_1867.html

Ontario was the place to be to see how Catholics lived in one side of town and the Protestants lived on the other side of town. Or towns that consist of Catholics or only Protestants. Many towns of Southern Ontario in 2013, one can still see the dividing line and hear of the stories of Protestant kids beating up the Catholic kids or the other way around. If one wants to lay blame, one can blame the Family Compact in Ontario, mostly composed of British Protestants and American Yanks who happened to be Protestant as well - who did their British duty to country and crown, spreading their biases and misconceptions of the terrible Catholics and their misbegotten ways.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Compact

Moving unto the historical time line - Significant Events in the History of Catholic Education in Ontario
http://www.ocecn.net/catholic_education/significant_events.htm

A historical narrative of Manitoba - their education system was born by copying the same template as Ontario’s public education system - http://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/mb_history/12/brandonpublicschools.shtml#31

To round it off - “No attempt has been made to give the history of our schools since Ryerson’s retirement, partly because no radical changes have been made, and partly because it would involve criticism of statesmen and teachers who are still actively engaged in work. Nor has any attempt been made to trace the history of University education after 1845. To do so would require a complete volume. But, as University education prior to 1844 was so closely connected with Common and Grammar Schools, it seemed necessary, up to a certain point, to trace the course of all three together.

The introductory chapter on the biography of Ryerson….”
Ottawa, July 1st, 1912.”  http://www.gutenberg.ca/ebooks/putman-egertonryerson/putman-egertonryerson-00-h.html

Constitutionally speaking - either way - fund all faith schools or secular schools will be a difficult course, considering the reasons why Catholic schools are protected under the Constitution of Canada. “In Canada, the term separate school refers to a particular type of school that has constitutional status in three provinces (Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan) and statutory status in three territories (Northwest Territories, Yukon and Nunavut). In these Canadian jurisdictions, a separate school is one operated by a civil authority — a separate school board — with a mandate enshrined in the Canadian Constitution (for the three provinces) or in federal statutes (for the three territories)....Consequently, a separate school is not a parochial or private school, or a charter school. The constitutionally provided mandate of a separate school jurisdiction and of a separate school is to provide education in a school setting that the separate school board considers reflective of Roman Catholic (or, rarely, Protestant) theology, doctrine, and practices. This mandate can manifest itself in the Program of Studies and the curriculum, exercises and practices, and staffing. The limits of this mandate are determined by the application of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and judicial decisions…The Constitution of Canada does not establish separate school education as a natural or unconditional right available to all. Only Protestants or Roman Catholics, whichever is the minority faith population compared to the other in a community, can consider the establishment of separate school education. The separate school establishment right is not available to citizens of any other faith (such as Orthodox Christians, Jews, Mormons, Hindus, Muslims, or Sikhs). In addition, the minority faith must establish that they wish to leave the public school system and create a separate school system.”  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_school

Schoolchoice means we have to keep the Catholic system intact. Just talk to the young parents everyday the way I do. So let the naysayer minority have their moment. The Catholic system is here to stay. History as always will prove us right.

I favour giving vouchers to the parents of all school-aged children and letting them decide on the education they will purchase with the money.  This policy would open the possibility of many different types of schools to be opened, by religious groups and by teachers who want to specialize in teaching ESL students for example. 
To hold all the schools accountable, I favor the use of standardized exams and schools reporting the growth-scores of their students in English and/or French and in Mathematics.

POSTED ON BEHALF OF DOUG

I say have a referendum in Ontario,

Do you want to continue to fund the catholic system

Yes ( )

No ( )

I am happy with that. It will lose badly.

John Tory was even with Dalton McGuinty when he proposed Rod’s option. He lost badly. Voucher education is dead in Ontario for all time.

Doug writes - “Recent waves of immigration has led to something of a reversal to the point that the average income of public schools is now lower. This has led to a small reversal. There is today no significant difference in scores.” 

Rather hypocritical of Doug, to blame immigrants for lowering the income of public schools and by extension, inferring that the public schools are still maintaining achievement at the same rate of the Catholic schools. Considering back in 1899, despite the difficulties, the Ontario Catholic schools were steadily growing, Catholics were enrolling in universities at the same rate as the Protestant students, becoming leaders in education innovation and where the public schools were following the Catholics, and offering solutions concerning the massive waves of immigration occurring during this time period.  The Waning of the Green: The Catholics, the Irish, and Identity in Toronto - 1887 to 1922 - go to Chapter 4
books.google.ca/books?isbn=0773517901

And here - ““There must be no drawing back”
The Catholic Church’s Efforts on Behalf of Non-English
Speaking Immigrants in Toronto 1889-1939”
https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/12061/1/MQ34006.pdf

” In 1841, Macdonell’s dream of more permanent funding for Catholic schools by the State was partially realized, when the new School Act for the United Province of Canada (a union of Upper and Lower Canada, today’s Ontario and Quebec) included a clause that permitted Catholics and others to establish denominational schools. The growth of Catholic schools over the next twenty-five years was punctuated by sectarian violence, linguistic conflict, and political maneuvering within the poorly conceived and constitutionally flawed legislature of Canada….......The latter point was troubling to many Catholics, who believed that the nonsectarian Christianity promoted in public schools, and fostered by the large numbers of Protestant schoolmasters, amounted to little more than Protestant proselytization. Bishop Armand de Charbonnel of Toronto (1850-1860) went so far as to call public schools an “insult” to the Catholic population and he urged his flock to establish and support distinctively Catholic schools. All of this squabbling over education came at a time of troubled relations between Catholics and Protestants in Canada. Although these were caused, in part, by sectarian bitterness imported from Europe, Upper Canadian Christians created their own reasons to prey upon one another; the arrival of thousands of Irish Catholic refugees from the potato famine was regarded as a scourge upon the land, while French-Canadian Catholic legislators were accused of furthering the interests of Catholicism by means of their strong presence in the Canadian Assembly. In the 1850’s, expressions of sectarian bitterness varied from hateful rhetorical exchanges between Protestants and Catholics in the public press, to full-fledged riots in the towns and cities of Ontario.”
http://www.ocecn.net/catholic_education/enduring_gift.htm

The Yukon Catholic School system fully funded from the beginning,  came about by a sinking of a ship, and later on - “In another peculiar twist of history, the Yukon’s separate school system actually saved it from annexation by B.C. in the late 1930s.”  http://www.yukon-news.com/news/a-catholic-school-history-lesson

For good measure, from the latest census - Catholics are still the majority - http://www.pewforum.org/2013/06/27/canadas-changing-religious-landscape/

The Catholics came a long way from being a minority in Upper Canada to one that represents the majority across Canada and where the Catholic schools are packed to the rafters. One rarely hears about the closing down of a Catholic schools in Ontario, and in my search to find data, I bumped into this essay on Education Next - on the American Catholic Schools. A very interesting paper - ” Sociologist James Coleman and colleagues Thomas Hoffer and Sally Kilgore, in 1982, were among the first to document Catholic schools’ academic successes, in High School Achievement: Public and Private Schools. A variety of studies since, by scholars at the University of Chicago, Northwestern, the Brookings Institution, and Harvard, have all supported the conclusion that Catholic schools do a better job educating children, especially the poor and minorities, than public schools.”  http://educationnext.org/can-catholic-schools-be-saved/

Vouchers are saving the American Catholic schools, from low enrollment due to higher tuition costs. Although, the American Catholic school system developed much differently from Canada, there is the common trait of Catholic schools in NA having stellar reputations in doing a better job in educating the youth.

POBOD

Nancy please

Nobody blames immigrants for being poor.

Catholics are about 33% of Ontario and 15% of catholics would vote to abolish RC schools. The public system is full of catholics.

A referrendum would lose about 70% against funding 30% for it.

OECTA is well aware of this data. They think the priests will kill catholic funding long before the government.

Than Doug, don’t have the public education system play the victim using immigrants as the bad guys. I laid it out historically, if it was not for the Catholic schools at the beginning of the 20th century, the public education system that very much had a Protestant culture of values, the public education system would have been lost among the various languages and cultures. On another note, being Catholic in a public school in the early 1900s in Ontario was one tough row because of the rampant discrimination and prejudice toward Catholics, by the public education establishment.

There is a reason I am bringing up the historical past, because article 93 would never have been inserted in the Constitution -1867, if the political and economic forces of Upper Canada in partnership with Ryerson and his gang of Protestant educators were not anti-Catholic, anti-French, and a host of other ‘anti’-prejudices other than the British Protestant stripes. That said, the only way Ontario, the former Upper Canada can eliminate Catholic schooling, is to reopen the Constitution. Article 93, was inserted to please Ontario’s Protestants and to assert that they were the majority in charge of education under the public school umbrella. A consensus was reached, and Article 93 is the result. For the newly found federal government, it was hope it would end the war of the leading Ontario Protestant political leaders picking on the Catholics and the French.  No chance of that happening, considering the public education forces spent an inordinate amount of time trying to shut down the Catholic French speaking schools and harassing the other Catholic schools that dare to teach their native languages of German, and other European languages.

Moving up to the 21st century, as I stated before, it be real tough for the Ontario proponents of a single school system to obtain that particular star, as it was attempted in the last half of the 19th century in Ontario. Ontario may be the only province that will always have the separate and public system, because of its special status with the Constitution of 1867. Not only does Article 93, protects the education rights of the Catholics, it also was the first kick-off in protecting minority rights based on religion. Ontario became a place, where people felt free to practice their faith of whatever that might be.

As for the Catholic Church killing off funding of the Catholic schools - Doug, you are whistling in Dixie, in the dark. Never going to happen in the next 100 years, but all bets are off in the next 100 years. As for the funding of Catholic schools, take a trip into history as to why Ontario has two school systems from the beginning. It all started, because the Protestant educators really did not want the Catholics in the public schools. You know the bit of ‘dirty Irish’ polluting the streets…....until the Catholic Irish was replace by another Catholic ethnic group….....then it became the bit of the ‘dirty Germans’ or the ‘dirty Italians’. A Wikipedia version - “The Orange Order, based among the Protestant Irish, became a dominant force in Toronto society, so much so that 1920s Toronto was called the “Belfast of Canada”. The Orange opposed everything Catholic. They lost interest in Ireland after the establishment of Northern Ireland and the Orange influence faded after 1940.[8]

Irish Catholics arriving in Toronto faced widespread intolerance and severe discrimination, both social and legislative, leading to several large scale riots between Catholics and Protestants from 1858–1878, culminating in the Jubilee riots of 1875. The Irish population essentially defined the Catholic population in Toronto until 1890, when German and French Catholics were welcomed to the city by the Irish, but the Irish proportion still remained 90% of the Catholic population. However, various powerful initiatives such as the foundation of St. Michael’s College in 1852 (where Marshall McLuhan was to hold the chair of English until his death in 1980), three hospitals, and the most significant charitable organizations in the city (the Society of St. Vincent de Paul) and House of Providence created by Irish Catholic groups strengthened the Irish identity, transforming the Irish presence in the city into one of influence and power.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Toronto

POSTED ON BEHALF OF DOUG

A Sept. 10 poll conducted by Ipsos Reid for CanWest News Service found that 35 per cent of Ontarians supported the Tory plan to extend funding to all faith-based schools that comply with provincial standards, with 62 per cent opposed. Ipsos Reid found that more than half of Ontarians, 53 per cent, would like to see the public and Catholic systems merged into a single school system.

2007 during election.

Nancy,

Thank you so much for your illumination of the history of Catholics in Ontario and the separate school system.  Though, Mr Doug, may squirm and fidget in his chair today, he certainly would likely have cowered in the corner if he had ever been confronted by one of the many Loretta abbey nuns who held control of many of the Catholic separate schools of the 40’s, 50’s and 60s.  This was a period during which principles ruled over material concerns and many were splendidly educated who otherwise might not have been. 

Today’s union affiliated teacher likely has barely a glimmer of memory for a time when vocation played a larger role in choosing a profession to future net worth. The same can be said for the many principled doctors who delivered their services to those who could not otherwise afford them. 

There is a strong need for solutions which are driven by the needs of the students rather than the well being of their teachers. The two are not mutually exclusive but have become seriously estranged.

POSTED ON BEHALF OF DOUG

most Ontarians don’t support catholic funding.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/02/21/more-ontarians-opposed-to-funding-catholic-schools

Regardless of polls, Ontario is indeed the province that has special status in Confederation and forever tied to the Canadian Constitution of 1867. The very best, the Ontario government could moved to defund the Catholic education system, but than it would mean, changing the funding formula - so people who wanted to support the Catholic education system can do so. If it were ever to happen, just watch all the Catholics coming out of the woodwork, including the ones who are not the practicing ones, go to bat for the Catholic education system in Ontario. It be the dog and cat shoot-out at the Okay Corral, Toronto.

Note in Ontario’s history - it was the Catholic nuns and lay people leading the charge enrolling in the Protestant teacher faculties to become certified, that set a good example for the Protestant teachers to follow suit. If one reads the history on education in Ontario, the public education system of 2013, owes a great debt to the Catholics. In the same way, English Canada should be thanking French Canada for their outstanding contributions to Canada. Canada would not be Canada if it was not for the French, and the Ontario public education system would not be where it is today, if it was not for the Catholics. Would OISE exists today, such as it is, if it was not for Catholics enrolling in the Protestant teachers’ colleges in record numbers? 

The Manitoba link, provides the reason that kick-started the war between Catholic schools and Protestant schools. “The convent school began with fifteen students, two of whom were the daughters of S. Clement, the Protestant Sheriff of the County of Brandon and a future member of the Protestant School Board. [56] As the school year progressed the enrollment grew to fifty, and when the school opened for classes in August 1884, sixty-three students were in attendance. [57] Necessarily, the growth in attendance was attributable primarily to Protestant children whose parents, reported the sisters, “... wished to confide their children to the sisters, finding the education given them far preferable to that of the public school.” [58]”
http://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/mb_history/12/brandonpublicschools.shtml#31

An example that was repeated across Canada, in the small towns and villages that had both the Catholic school and the public school to choose from. However, in Ontario, the political and the public education powers with the Protestant stripes had always thought the Catholic schools would never survived. But the Catholic schools did survived and prosper, and credit goes to Article 93 in the Constitution of 1867. Additional credit to the nuns who staffed the schools.

In the American article - “Bobby and I stood outside the small public elementary school that our children attended, pondering our respective 1st graders’ prospects. The weeds poked up through the asphalt, the windows on the 30-year-old building were dirty, the playground equipment was rotting. Inside the K–2 school, some 600 kids were being prepared for academic underachievement: in a few more years two-thirds of them would be unable to read at grade level.

“Nothing wrong with this place,” Bobby finally said, “that a busload of nuns wouldn’t solve.”

I laughed. I knew exactly what he meant. We grew up on opposite sides of the country (he in New York and I in Oregon), but we both grew up Catholic, in the ’50s, and that meant one thing if nothing else: nuns.”
http://educationnext.org/can-catholic-schools-be-saved/

POSTED ON BEHALF OF DOUG

Frank that   point of view is well known as teacher bashing.

So this is teacher bashing - “Today’s union affiliated teacher likely has barely a glimmer of memory for a time when vocation played a larger role in choosing a profession to future net worth. The same can be said for the many principled doctors who delivered their services to those who could not otherwise afford them.

There is a strong need for solutions which are driven by the needs of the students rather than the well being of their teachers. The two are not mutually exclusive but have become seriously estranged.”

If so, I have to agree with Frank. So sorry Doug, one thing you cannot do, is to rewrite the history of education in Ontario. The teachers’ unions of today, are going to have to live with the warts and beauty marks, and reminders of the past. Such as this reminder, a common sight in the Ontario community of the 1960s of a teacher chatting with parents at the kitchen table, trying to solved the reading difficulties of student and child. The teachers often came without a prearranged appointment, dedicated to their task of educating children and determined to ensured that all of the classroom students had a sound foundation in the 3 Rs.

Today, in the unionized and politicized atmosphere of unions - a parent would be lucky to be informed six months after the fact on their children’s learning struggles and parents no longer have the respect of the teachers. That cannot be said about the teachers in the Catholic schools, who really do a far better job in trying to remediate the difficulties in the 3 Rs, compared to their public school counterparts.

POBOD

Quebec abolished it’s religious based school system overnight, nobody cared. They use language not religion. No problem.

Oh really, Doug? Overnight? It took 20 years for it to be realized, but why ruin a false narrative with facts eh?

Read and weep Doug - http://www.ocecn.net/catholic_education/CatholicEducation.pdf

Note Newfoundland and Quebec are vastly different. Ontario cannot be compared to either Quebec or Newfoundland.

Today - the opposing side will used the myths and little white fibs to get rid of the Catholic schools. “History buffs can skip this next paragraph. The rest of us need to go all the way back to 1763 to trace the roots of our separate schools system. The victorious Brits struck a deal at the Treaty of Paris protecting the rights of Quebec’s Catholics to practise their religion. In 1841, when the governments of Upper and Lower Canada were combined to form a single legislature, Catholics and people of other faiths were allowed to establish denomi­national schools. And at the time of Confederation in 1867, Catholic education rights were secured constitutionally while control over education was passed to the provinces.”  http://www.torontolife.com/informer/features/2012/09/25/jan-wong-the-elephant-in-the-classroom/

Even the PQ in Quebec would be insulted - it was all about language and the French culture and practices that was protected. As for the British, they never thought the French would last long, and go the way of the do-do bird.

A little bit about the historical laws concerning denomination schools in Canada - on page 238
http://books.google.ca/books?id=RZ7rFC6pL0kC&pg=PT263&lpg=PT263&dq=Quebec’s+elimination+of+the+Catholic+school+system&source=bl&ots=us_wO1Zc4R&sig=yEBVeFgEAUng-2QHL0_kMyEGcDc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HsSDUr6VAoXB2QXf54CQCg&ved=0CIUBEOgBMAg4Cg#v=onepage&q=Quebec’s elimination of the Catholic school system&f=false

On another angle - worth noting - “Of Canada’s 10 provinces, 4 were not burdened with such privileges when they joined Canada and 3 have eliminated them since: Manitoba in 1890, Quebec in 1997 and Newfoundland and Labrador in 1998. Such privileges persist in Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan. In particular, the Ontario Catholic school system receives 100% public funding.”  http://aft.atheisme.ca/prospects-for-secularism/

On separate school - http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/articles/separate-school

If you care to read the above links - and the others that I have posted Doug - don’t be so flippant with your words. The Ontario Catholic families, could insist to have their children to be sent to a Catholic school, even though the nearest Catholic school is 25 kms away. Most don’t, until they are fed up with the local public school, and then they will insert their constitutional right to have their children attend a Catholic school when the public education officials object to their withdrawal of their children from the public school system. Most education officials will not object too strongly, and allow the Catholic family to leave the public education system.

Just remember, the Constitution -1867 - it worked both ways. In Quebec, it was the Protestants that were protected as the minority and in Ontario, it was the Catholic minority that was protected. Each province went different routes and pathways in their formulation of the public education system. Canada is very unique, that Catholics and their right to educated their children within the framework of Catholicism,  have been protected within the Constitution.

As I have stated before, Ontario is very much the special status province, who will always be funding the Catholic and Public education system. When one considers the history, no one is willing to opened up the Constitution, to opened up that can of worms. Be grateful what the Catholic education system has brought to Ontario in enhancing the education of all students in Ontario.

POBOD

So back to the topic, you are saying, never mind what the majority wants, I want public funding for RC schools, other private schools, to heck with the majority. Democracy = the people rule.

There is no democracy in the public education system. Its rather an authoritative and bossy place of educators who want the public to remain quiet and complacent. Think again Doug - Democracy does not mean removing constitutional rights of the people, and that includes the Catholic having a right to a Catholic education as deemed in the Constitution.  After all, your Protestant brothers back in 1867, agree to it and even voted on it. Bonus, your Protestant brothers and sisters continued to discriminate on their policies and practices when it came to the Catholics.

You ought to read the old newspaper accounts Doug. Your Protestant brothers was all surprised when the Catholics took their new found rights and got themselves an education, that allowed the Catholics to sit across on the Ontario government’s tables and decide Ontario policy. Or do you think, the riots and the outright brawls between Protestants and Catholics died on their own accord?  In the 1960s, visiting my aunt who was a grandmother to me, lived in Waterloo. On the one side of the street, huge three storied homes, all bricked with a fireplace in each room, Five bedrooms and even a maid’s quarters. On the other side of the street, small homes built after WWII, and as my aunt had said - it used to be a park for the neighborhood. Well Doug, the Protestants lived on that side of the street in the small homes, and the Catholics lived across the street in the big homes. For some strange reason, the kids across the street would not play with us, no matter what I and my sister did, like bring goodies from the candy store. My aunt, as she was feeding the squirrels (they were eating from her hand), told us why the kids would not play with us. We were Catholics. I was just young - around the age of 8 or so - because back home, I was surrounded by homes practicing the different kinds of the Protestant faiths, and all of us kids played with each other. My first experience of being dis because I was Catholic. It would not be the last time , either, but the Orange Order is still healthy and alive in the government and social institutes of Ontario.

By the way, that day I also learned why the public school did not have all the bells and whistles compared to the Catholic school. But that is another story for another day, because Waterloo and Kitchener was a stronghold of Catholics and they inserted their rights rather early in the day, shortly after 1867.

pobod

Constitutional right Nancy. Explain Quebec.

pobod

Nancy, I taught the history and politics of Ontario education for 4 years at York University. I have a passing understanding of what has taken place.

And your point is Doug?  Big deal, from my very short search - the Ontario education faculties all carried courses that run on the theme of history and politics of Ontario education. Here - http://www.edu.uwo.ca/graduate-education/course_descriptions.html

And here at York University - This interdisciplinary course examines the social, historical and political context of education in general with specific reference to the development of systems of compulsory public schooling in Canada. The relationships among formal education, economic inequality, and social reform are explored. Requisite materials on Ontario school law, school organization and administration, professional rights and responsibilities, and the role of teachers’ federations are included.”  http://edu.yorku.ca/program/bachelor-of-education/concurrent-bed/electives/

It is rather revealing how just a slight changing of search terms - reveals some oddities of venom being hurled at the public education system, directed at the education faculties. Racism was the charge, but one could say - it is the backlash still being felt by the dividing line between the Catholics and the ones holding power, the Protestants in the education system in the early days.

I find that the public education records glosses over the problems and difficulties of the early days in establishing the education system. In particularly, the areas of the French, the Catholics and the dividing line between the Protestants and the Catholics. No doubt, the courses pertaining to the history and politics of the Ontario education system, has the same tinge of bias and glossing over such things as Regulation 17, a law forbidding French instruction beyond the first two primary years. One would think, the Ontario Public Education ministry of the day, played no role behind the scenes in engineering Regulation 17. The anti-Catholic group positioned in the high places of government could no longer go after the Catholic schools, their next move was to go after the French Catholics and limit their language rights.

I came across two additional papers dealing with Catholic education and schools - The one paper is entitled, The History of Ontario Separate Schools: Sources and Problems - http://www.cchahistory.ca/journal/CCHA1988/Walker.pdf

The second paper - FAITH-BASED SCHOOLING AND THE POLITICS OF EDUCATION: A CASE STUDY OF ONTARIO, CANADA - http://www.politicsandreligionjournal.com/images/pdf_files/srpski/godina6_broj1/maclellan.pdf

As for Regulation 17 - some would state that began Quebec’s desire to separate from Canada. http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/articles/ontario-schools-question

What is rare to find, among the stacks of the public education establishment, is a honest and frank discussion why it was necessary to protect Catholics rights to education, and than later in the 20th century, to protect French language rights.

I believed it is within this context, it marks the beginning of the consolidation of political power of the Ontario public education system and its stakeholders. Not only within the borders of Ontario, but as well moving beyond the borders of Ontario, to control the education agendas of other provinces across Canada. Remnants of the Catholic and Protestant stand-off in education and schools are still leaving its marks across Canada.

Its rather ironic, in the last contract negotiations with teachers in Ontario, the Catholic teachers’ union was the first to sign on. The public teachers’ unions reacted much the same as they did in the early days, badly. In the early days of the public teachers’ unions in Ontario, when the Catholics did not followed suit, they reacted badly.

Doug - it is in all the previous links - the best that Ontario can do - is to stopped funding of the Catholic system. But that would mean a very nasty fight and the reopening of the Constitution.

“It is important to note that the Parliament of Canada cannot unilaterally amend any of the Constitution Acts and that the Constitution Act, 1982 contains amending provisions that detail how denominational protections in education within the provinces can be altered. However, as education in the territories has been legislatively delegated by the federal government, the denominational protections could be amended or repealed by federal legislation. In addition, Article 29 of the Constitution Act, 1982 specifies that denominational rights and privileges in education override the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (referred to as the Charter). Thus, it disallows Charter challenges of denominational rights and privileges in education as well as preventing those who are denied denominational rights to launch a case of discrimination under the Charter (Bezeau, 2007). Thus, the constitutional nature of Catholic and Protestant minority rights in education has not made religious education in Canada any less controversial. “
http://www.umanitoba.ca/publications/cjeap/articles/zinga2.html

As for Quebec, it took 20 years of moving towards a secular system. However, it became more of a means to cement the French language, than it was being an elimination of fully funded Catholic schools. Quebec cannot be compared nor can Newfoundland.

So the only solution is stopped funding of the Catholic schools after 168 years funding the Catholic schools - not a viable solution. Or go to a secular education system which would take another 100 years or so. In Quebec it was much faster, because it was all about language plus the Quebec education officials were not as obsessive and whining about providing Protestant schools for their minority of Protestants, like its counterparts in Protestant Ontario.

Read the last link - it is complex - and it is obvious it will need political will. I wager no political leader would want to touch it.

pobod

I was a history teacher as well, I fully appreciate history but it is prologue. The majority of Ontarians do not support public support to religious schools period including public support for catholic schools. Don’t you think we should do what the majority wants? I am happy to put both questions on a referendum ballot any time.

Doug, I see you are one of many, where history is just a footnote. The reason why the world is in a mess, our leaders also think history is just a footnote.

By the way Doug, you would fit in like a glove in the Old Soviet Union and Communist China.  My my, how dismissive you are when it comes to the rights of others other than the educator class. The ironic part, the educator class made sure history was removed from the requirements for a high school diploma and removal of it all together in elementary school. History was replaced by social studies, where all the students learned governments are good no matter what stripe. It is left up to the parents to instruct their children in the ways of governments.

One can’t just moved to eliminate a part of the Constitution because the poll said, a majority wants it. Good thing it doesn’t work that way, and if one wants an example - a lot of raised eyebrows by the Supreme Court of Canada judges dealing with the questions of the Senate by the Harper government. If the Harper government has its way, in theory they want the power to removed the right of voting.

Ontario there is no political will. Until there is, it will take another 20 years, as what happened in Quebec. A lot of hard work, removing any reference to God in text, songs and I am surprised they don’t have the language police on the playgrounds giving out tickets when someone’s, “my god’ or ‘amen’. Now they are intent on going after the religious symbols and apparel that people wear to work in the government and schools. That should be a fun case to watch when it hits the courts.

Such a shame, Ontario was noted for being very tolerant to other religions and the different cultures. Now, the public education system is intent to act like their Protestant brothers of the late 1800s and early 1900s - the perfect opportunity for choice to be shoved down the collective throats of the Ontario public education system, in this age of individual rights.

I personally think that religions are anti-intellectual, but the arguments for closing the Catholic schools are not rational either.

There are no additional costs incurred for the Catholic boards, they get exactly the same per-student grants as the public boards (and probably fewer of the special grants).  Potential savings can only be claimed if the public boards commit to reduce their per-student funding in return for more students, and that isn’t on the table.

Bureaucracies hate competition, but that isn’t a reason to close the Catholic schools either.  If the Catholic system is delivering better outcomes (as Malkin claims at the top of the page), then a rational parent will move their child from the public system.  This is certainly unpleasant for the public boards, but the whip of competition likely improves both public and Catholic schools.

There is a fairness argument that Jews and Muslims don’t have their own publicly-funded schools.  Or for that matter, parents who want more focus on sports, or who want more rigour in academics.  But that’s just the dog-in-the-manger argument.  It would be more fair if everyone had an option (and we should do that), but shutting down the Catholics doesn’t help the Jews and Muslims.

The public vote can be whipped up to support any number of irrational propositions, including anti-tax decrees that starve schools into rubble.  We’ve seen it happen south of the border, I’m just saddened to see an ‘educator’ suggest that path.

POSTED ON BEHALF OF DOUG

Nancy, religious education in Quebec was just as protected as in Ontario.

Quebec passed legislation to change it from Protestant Ctholic to French English.

The Federal government approved. A system that was just as constitutionally protected is now gone.

How dismissive you are of the will of the majority.

Doug - Back in 1867 - as Ontario had to abide by allowing Catholics to attend their own schooling facilities, likewise Quebec had to abide by allowing the minority of Protestants to attend their own schooling facilities. Yes, Doug there was a minority of French speaking Protestants along with a minority of English speaking Protestants.

Ontario, decided from the get-go to provide funding for the Catholic schools, and there was very good reasons to provide funding for the Catholic schools in Ontario. In Quebec, they did not followed the same route as Ontario. However over the years, more and more French students were attending the English schools, and the separatists moved to end the trend, and force the vast majority to attend French schools. The remaining Catholic and English speaking schools in Quebec are now private schools. It took 20 years and it be another 50 years of a dog fight for the Quebec separatists to realized their so-called secular dream, where the only language is French and no religious symbols in the public realm.

By the way Doug, it was within Quebec’s jurisdiction to change the legislative to an non-denominational school system. Newfoundland went the same route, but for different reasons than Quebec. However, Ontario will not go that route because there is no political will and their circumstances are far different from Quebec and Newfoundland. I have covered every aspect of Ontario in the above links including the historical. Ontario will remained the special status province for some time to come based on the historical lines, the pathways that was taken and the political decisions taken by both the federal government of the late 1800s, the provinces Quebec and Ontario. You ought to read about your Protestant brothers cloistered in the public Protestant education system, how upset they were, when they learned of the new consensus reached by the MacDonald government. After all MacDonald, did not want to fight the old battle lines of Ontario, in his new parliament where approximately 1/2 of the MPs were Catholic and the other half were Protestant. MacDonald had a railroad to build….........One should do some reading on MacDonald and his enlightening thinking in an era where the Protestants were highly prejudiced towards Catholics.