Excellent Bev! Many questions!

So would you say that the Finnish educational system encourages parental involvement in their child’s education?
What is the difference?  Do the parents pay for the extra help?  If not, how do the parents know how to help teach their child?
What about children who seem to have difficulty with language or math? Or is this a smaller number as well?

Is the higher education levels of the teachers just a natural progression of a higher educated society?

I’m very curious to know.
Thanks Mark

So in a nutshell what you’re saying is that it’s teacher quality???

Well, well, well….now where have we heard that one before.

For those interested over at the Mended blog a fellow has briefed those there of a visit the OTF had with a delegation from Finland just last week and you’ll never guess what the Finnish folks said contributed to their success?

“..teachers are well educated”

None of this “national characteristics” nonsense explains why Finland was miles behind until the 1970’s when they reorganized their schools and their teacher education when it became clear that they needed to be a Nokia economy not a lumberjack economy. The other norther countries like Sweden have excellent school systems but not quite as good as Canada or Finland. Why is Finland in first place then? Teacher education. Period.

Sounds to me like there’s just a bit more to it Doug.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/09/international/europe/09finl.html

If this article is accurate they are only spending $5K per child, the teachers even though they have a masters are not making any more money, kids start school at age 7 and homework clubs staffed by “assistants”.

I think there’s a lot more to this than just “teacher education”.

In behind the excellent teacher training, is the philosophy
.
“The Finnish philosophy with education is that everyone has something to contribute and those who struggle in certain subjects should not be left behind.

A tactic used in virtually every lesson is the provision of an additional teacher who helps those who struggle in a particular subject. But the pupils are all kept in the same classroom, regardless of their ability in that particular subject.”

1. Two teachers per classroom

” Primary and secondary schooling is combined, so the pupils don’t have to change schools at age 13. They avoid a potentially disruptive transition from one school to another.”

2. Stay in the first school, for the longest stretch of a child’s education.

“Teacher Marjaana Arovaara-Heikkinen believes keeping the same pupils in her classroom for several years also makes her job a lot easier.

‘‘I’m like growing up with my children, I see the problems they have when they are small. And now after five years, I still see and know what has happened in their youth, what are the best things they can do. I tell them I’m like their school mother.’’

3. So unlike, Canadian or American schools.

“Finnish parents obviously claim some credit for the impressive school results. There is a culture of reading with the kids at home and families have regular contact with their children’s teachers.”

4. Contact with children’s teachers get less and less after grade 3, concerning the Canadian education system.

“There is an emphasis on relaxed schools, free from political prescriptions. This combination, they believe, means that no child is left behind.”

5. Free from political prescriptions. Now that would be wonderful if the Canadian education system took that page, and lived by it, free from politics.

I do agree Bev, “I see little or no evidence of this kind of devotion to the children and the good of the country in the Canadian education system. The teachers? unions, the bureaucracies, the faculties of education, the textbook publishers - all seem to be focused on using the system to benefit their own interests. There is no vision that we are all in this together and that when one organization takes advantage of another, it drags everyone down - including itself ultimately.’, and that is worth repeating.

1) You can say Finnish national character but before education was reorganized in the 1970s they were not leaders.

2) You can say the relative equality and the almost complete elimination of poverty in their socialistic democratic system plays a big part and it certainly does but why is Sweden Norway and Denmark with similar systems behind Canada.

3) Teachers are paid a kind of northern European average but they are respected. The country seems free of teacher bashers which helps.

4) In the end, if you ask the Finns they say it is teacher education, training and respect.

Mark, I can try to answer some of your questions by posing them to my relatives in Finland.  It may take time though.

Thanks Bev, it would be interesting to know.
Googling around a bit makes one think that Doug has been cherry picking the best points he likes about the Finnish system. I do agree it looks like a very good system, I just wish I had more time to research this, but my HS duties come first. Here’s a few things I found:

At first glance of Wikipedia it looks great! Where do I sign-up!
They have testing and grading, parental involvement, two teachers per class, no child left behind, the level of phys ed, shops, labs, etc., that many of us had as kids. They are later divided into vocational and academic systems, 6 years university for teachers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland

So Doug, are you willing to embrace the whole Finnish education package?
Doug pulled out the ol’ smoke and mirrors to turn the Finnish teachers lower wages into a teacher bashing/respect issue.
Although teachers are held in high respect, teaching is largely a middle class job and there has been a decline in enrolment lately. University is free, but competition dictates that only the best are chosen for further studies.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/43/15/5328720.pdf

Here’s the link to the national curriculum:
http://varttua.stakes.fi/NR/rdonlyres/78BC5411-F37C-494C-86FA-BE409294709B/0/e_vasu.pdf

If I were forced to take one complete system and only one, it seems Finland is the very best. Democratic socialist systems tend to be the best but not all and not only.

If I were designing a system myself, I would add McGuinty style ECE to the rest of the Finnish system.

Their testing is almost non-existent compared to us but nevertheless they are always top tier in PISA/TIMMs etc.

Oh how Doug leaves out the facts. I took a quick peek at what Mark provided, to root out pre-school education. Even they pre-school outmatch anything provided by the governments in North America. I look up the qualifications for teachers, and they are bona-fide teachers and many have specialized to targeted the kids with potential learning problems.

“Beyond what Sara says, I would also observe that there are quite deliberate efforts to use early childhood education to help narrow achievement gaps. Finland has a relatively low poverty rate and relatively few immigrants compared to the United States, but the people we spoke to there talked about deliberate efforts to do outreach to immigrant families ? even ones with unemployed parents ? to help them learn Finnish. They also have a lot of special ed preschool teachers to specifically target kids with problems. Far from being an example of a country achieving educational success without early childhood preparation, I would say that excellent preschooling is one of the three main pillars (along with low levels of child poverty and high levels of competition to become a teacher) of Finland?s educational success.”
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/12/early_childhood_education_in_finland.php

http://www.finland.cn/Public/default.aspx?contentid=99660
“Pre-school teaching
The Finnish school system does not have any actual pre-schools, but pre-school teaching is provided at schools and daycare centres. Pre-school teaching means education provided in the year before children start comprehensive school. The aim is to improve children’s capacity for learning. In practice, children are taught new facts and new skills through play. There is legislation which requires all municipalities to provide pre-school teaching free of charge to all children aged six, but participation in such teaching is voluntary. Most six-year-olds now go to pre-school.’

The daycare centres in Finland, have qualified teachers on staff . I highly doubt the ECEs in Canada, are of the same quality and training as what is happening in the Finland system.

” In 1998, public spending on education accounted for 6.2 per cent of GDP in Finland (against an OECD average of 5.3 per cent)”

http://www.finland.cn/Public/default.aspx?contentid=99660

Not sure where Canada falls, but I do know it is well below 4 %.

Thank the heavens, that Doug is not deciding policy. Stopped cherry-picking.

You accuse me of cherry picking and then fill a page with how great Finland is because of all of the great things they do in education. Duh, I have been saying nothing other than they have a great education system every time I am on here.

We don’t need privatization or charters or tax credits or vouchers or testing or anything like that. We need the Finnish education system but we need to extend it down to 3 year olds. This is the progressive future. The Finns get it.

Doug, Finland’s education department only has pre-school for the six year olds, and that is optional. It is their daycare centres, that, with trained teachers on staff, that operates like a pre-school. Furthermore, the whole education system, especially in the elementary and high school areas, are administrated differently where the municipalities must provide the education.

“It is the municipalities’ responsibility to arrange basic education. There are about 450 municipalities in Finland, and each of them is responsible for providing education for all their children, or for ensuring that education is available to all children of school age. The law states that basic education is free of charge. This means that, in addition to teaching and school attendance, school books and other materials are also free. School pupils also receive one hot meal a day free of charge. The law also states that basic education must be provided near home. The arrangement and cost of school journeys longer than five kilometres are the responsibility of the municipality.”

Of course Finland’s teachers have complete autonomy of their classrooms, with no union or government demands to teach in a certain way, how, and they decide what curriculum to use.

I think you are getting my point. To select one area, such as pre-school and plunk it into the Canadian education system, without an overhaul of the whole education system and how it is funded, and of course how a teacher becomes qualified, and what pedagogy is required. At the moment, it is not a requirement for a teacher to be well-versed in language, let alone grammar.

There is a story on the web, that describes the differences between Finland and Canada/United States education system. In North America, the education authorities are more interested in putting new ornaments on the Christmas tree, and they forget about watering the Christmas tree. Whereas, in Finland, they water the Christmas tree. In other words, Finland formulates education policy on the basis of long-term goals, whereas North America education systems, have policy based on short-term goals.

Doug, you may like the Finland’s education system, but you do not like the changes that are needed, to reflect Finland’s successes in education.
This is where you, among many like to cherry-picked different parts of the Finland’s system, and add them to the Christmas tree, as a new ornament, without watering the tree. Somehow, it becomes the other guy’s responsibility to do it. No part of any of the education systems in North America are working together with the same agenda, but are completing against each other for education dollars, political power, and separate interests. There is not a shared vision in North America’s education system, Not even a shared vision within a school’s environment.

You keep thinking you have found an area of Finland’s education system that I will disagree with for some reason. I knew all of this before you posted. I wrote a paper on Finland’s education system while at OISE in the 1980s. What do you think I disagree with? So far I knew all of this and agree with it in the main. This is the world’s best system. It is not the best in every single way, no system is,  but it is the best overall.

The Finnish model would not work over here.  The current workforce in the education system would never co-operate.

Competent, responsible teachers using a proven curriculum.

The majority of people teaching elementary school today are incompetent teaching-certificate holders.

They “teach” subjects they have not mastered using methods and textbooks that have never produced good results.
These methods and textbooks are not supported by the science of how the mind works and how we humans learn.

More money could be a good thing if we can afford it.
Why on earth give it to a system that has proven time after time to be incompetent?

PS: I apologize in advance to the good teachers - that is people who are able to increase knowledge in their students - that work in the system.
I’ve met a few; unfortunately they are few and far in between.

Bev, the teachers tout Finland in their own internal publications. Be specific.

Europe, = opinion masqurading as fact and an insult to teachers. I’m not surprised.

Doug, Here is a few links, about teachers unions in Finland, and how they operate. Complete opposite of the present day situation in Canada’s education system.

“ADMINISTRATION: As has been noted earlier, Finland has moved from a highly centralized to a highly decentralised model of administration during the last four decades. The key elements of the administration system are:
* Parliament
* Ministry of Education
* Local Authorities
* Schools and Teachers

http://tinyurl.com/yehhg77

The next link, will tell you something about the system itself.
Two main ideas:
“Building upon the expertise of local players, whose experience, opinions and abilities allowed them to indicate the best ways forward. The teacher unions and the educators themselves have always had the opportunity to be heard, to help crafting a blueprint of the reforms”

and

“Via the close partnership between the labor organizations and the governments, between the employees and the employers, in both planning and implementation stages, the teacher union changed from external political pressure group into a stakeholder in government decision-making, i.e. into one encompassing labor organization, that looks at the interest of the COMPLETE SOCIETY, just like the government. This key element in good quality of governance and public institutions turned out to be the driving force of education performance and economic competitiveness in Finland.”

http://bertmaes.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/why-is-education-in-finland-that-good-10-reform-principles-behind-the-success/

From all the posts Doug, you have a dislike for decentralization structures, and where the classroom teachers have an important role in deciding education policy, but also have the autonomy to freely select curriculum and conduct classes as they see fit.

Until the teachers unions in Canada, redefine their role from one of external political pressure group to a stakeholder, that looks after the best interests of children and society, it is time for strong union supporters such as yourself to stopped using Finland, as a way to cherry-picked certain elements, to promote more money in the system, that really at the end, promotes the best interests of the teachers.

Fact: 40% of our students do not know how to
- read, write and
- do basic math well
in grade 3 after having been “taught” for 3 years, 6 hours a day by a “certified” teacher.

Fact: students accepted into colleges and universities need remedial English and Math.
These are our best students.

These are not facts Mr Europe. They are your opinions.

We graduate more students as a % of their age group than anyone on Earth. Canada is seen by most of the worls as a model to be emulated in education. Only Finland does better. In Canada and Ontario we have never been more literate and educated at any time in the past than we are today. There was no “golden era”.

These are facts.

Doug, the latest data coming from Canadian universities, that 20 % of first year students have poor reading and writing skills. It is suspected that it is higher, than the 20 %. This figure does not include anyone who has been identified with a learning problem.

Doug, you should hit the high schools and take a tour all over Ontario, and you soon learn something different. Better yet, become a substitute teacher, or work part-time as a reading specialist, than you will see it with your eyes, ears and mind.

Thanks for taking the time to share this, I feel strongly about it and love learning more on this topic. If possible, as you gain expertise, would you mind updating your blog with more information? It is extremely helpful for me.

http://www.maths-n-abacus.com/why-abacus-education.html

Yes, abacus, I’ll certainly add up-dates if and when I can.
I think it’s a great idea to teach children how to use the abacus.  I lived in Japan for 3 1/2 years and they used it there, only it was called a soroban (sp?).  They preferred to use them for calculations because they were faster than calculators. 
It was amazing to watch a clerk use the soroban:  they almost appeared to simply sweap their hand over it at lightening speed, and there was the answer.