My look at same data?

You don’t need a charter school, public schools are just as good usually better. Charters have really underperformed on their expectations.

Mr. Little, sixty percent does not equate to “usually”.  Nine of the twenty-two top ranked schools are non-public. That is due to more than random chance.  Perhaps choice is not a bad idea.

For heaven’s sake, schools that can choose their own kids, push miscrients out, threaten others with exclusion, take in no spec ed or ESL, no poor people etc. I would hope they would do well. Imagine those schools getting thumped by so many schools that have to take everybody.

Doug, did you read the study, and the method used. The public schools, that are at the top, are schools that have various mixes of social/economic, and one school of low-income made the top 22.

The logical conclusion is and the only one, that more than likely, effective teaching methods and teachers.

Further studies, would probably explore what makes the top 22 different from the others.

And Doug, we all know public school takes all new comers, and part of the school act. So what is your point?

My point is quite clear. When you put schools into “competition” they need to be playing by the same rules.

I would love it if the Leafs could have 6 players to the Habs 5 when they play but I doubt if anyone would think that game was fair.

If you insist, than the public education system is going to have to let go on some of their advantages.

Advantages, such as much deeper discounts for school supplies and resources, that other schools wish they have the advantage. What about the deep discounts that software developers offer to public education boards? 
Charter schools have to run a tight ship, and be savvy with their dollars. They also report to the parents, giving them a breakdown of everything. Now I am talking about the Alberta charter schools, that have never been corporate-run entities.

A public education has many advantages, because of the sheer size.

“Increasing Cost of Education
The expansion and increased access has been accompanied by a diversification and enrichment of the programs offered and, not surprisingly, by a considerable increase in expenditures on education. The total cost of education exceeded $1 billion for the first time in 1947. By 1997 the total bill was estimated at $58.6 billion, of which 60% was spent on elementary and secondary education. This was a considerable increase from 1989, when it was estimated that $28 billion was spent on elementary and secondary education. “

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0007205

Doug, one can list the disadvantages and advantages, but public education systems will always be the king when it comes to 58.6 billion dollars every year.  Do the exercise, you will conclude that offering choice, is no threat to the public education system. Unless you think competition will bring change within the public education system, such as accountability, smarter and more efficient methods that work for children and teachers, are just two of them. Do it, and you may be surprise the only education system that has the most important advantages, is the public education system. Pity though, the governance of the education system is at fault, where it actually prevents making good use of the advantages.  Charter schools are force, to have a good structure to govern and to put all resources to good use.

Nancy, Don’t be so naive. There are major forces on this continent and around the world than want nothing less than the total privatization for profit of the entire public education system (Gates, Broad, Waltons, Fraser Institute, CDH, World Bank, and many many more). In this context the public system must fight with all of its might and all of its allies to defend every single square inch of public territory from the privatizers who could care less about kids, they see education as a commodity. They are so depraved, they see health and other services the same way.

Can we please stick to the problem?

The problem is: a lot of students - 40% do not know how to read, write and do basic math well.

To me as a parent is irrelevant how much somebody “cares” about my child or if somebody is a “certified teacher” or not if my child isn’t learning.

To me as a taxpayer is irrelevant how my tax money is being used to teach the next generation as long as the next generation is a well-educated one that will be able to make good decisions and be able to hold decent jobs to pay taxes in order to maintain a decent society.

What we have now - in spite of the caring and the best efforts and the reasonably big amount of money spent on education - is not working.

So it is time one way or the other
a) to give parents choice over the schools their children are educated
and
b) account to the taxpayers what kind of results their education money produces

Mr.Little you are so depraved you never once cared about the normal children who don’t learn how to read and write ... you go on and on about
- we care but we can’t be expected to educate the poor because, to quote you, they are “POOR”
- our system is very good, second in the world - but NO we can’t prove because testing is BAD and hurts children
- we have professional, certified teachers and you should not question them - you teacher bashers -because they are professionals but on the other hand don’t expect them to be responsible if the students don’t learn!

Let’s just stick to the problem: our students don’t learn enough so let’s try something different from what we’ve been doing so far!

PS: Insanity = doing the same thing and expecting different results!

#1 the claim that 40% cannot do basic skills is bogus proven by the EQAO that you love and I think is worse than useless.

#2 It is not me it is “standardized testing” like PISA and TIMMS by the OECD that says we are #2 in the world.

#3 I agree our students don’t learn enough but their teachers are totally blameless in this because the system is totally starved of the funding that it would take to make us #1 with the literacy of 15 year olds.

#4 We graduate more people from post secondary than any nation on the Earth. Am I satisfied with this? No I want to widen the gap and pull away on the other nations.

#5 As you can see the level of satisfaction with teachers, local schools etc. Ontario voters want higher taxes and much more money spent on schools so the classes can be smaller and there are more SE teachers. What part of this is difficult for you?

Wrong you are Doug Ontario voters do NOT want higher taxes and much more spent on schools.

Nice try of a twist from the OISE survey but only the majority of those surveyed suggested they would agree to higher taxes.

I surely hope you’re willing your candidate to run with that during the next campaign because the majority of the province who are the aging middle-class…the EVER INCREASING and growing middle-class is more concerned about money going into healthcare than schools in our near future. There are more people without kids in the province these days than WITH them who when push comes to shove would rather see their healthcare intact and available to them than a continuing pumping of their money poured into the black hole of salaries for those who current supply education…..and yes, educators being one part of that.

Can’t argue with the fact that Ontario is getting older and the kids fewer and fewer.

The problem with the mindset there Mr Sheep is that you don’t seem to understand that there is no need for a trade off. First the poll is very clear, people would be willing to raise THEIR OWN taxes to pay for education. If you ask them which they want health cre or education they will say BOTH and a lot more of both. They mean it.

The poll is clear in that of those who were surveyed most were willing to pay an education tax…this doesn’t morph into the same thing the majority of Ontarians.

Re: healthcare and education. - don’t be too sure of that.

I have been looking at polling data for many years, the OISE/UT poll being only one of many. People on this site of course have every right to their opinion but they make a very big mistake when they willfully confuse it with majority opinion. If you live in a conservative town in a conservative riding, it is easy to confuse the majority message because all around you people agree and repeat the fact that schools cost too much, you don’t need any money to have a good education, the private sector could do a better job, we need more testing, the teachers have it too good.

People who believe this stuff tend to think a majority of Ontarians believe it as well. They don’t believe it. Why do you think John Tory got thumped in the last election? The OISE poll is far worse than the ones I saw at Vector. 4-7% want other religious schools funded.

Believe what you want but don’t let those pesky polls and elections get in the way. The overwhelming majority of Ontarians do not agree with the prevailing opinion on the site. That is just a plain old fact.

Doug, you are far over the top and sound like many school officials that based policy on surveys, to justified their own personal ideologies and dogma.

It is obvious, where you stand in the education field defending the stance of the state knows what the people want, and the detractors or the mere whiff of questioning, is snuffed out, with their usual heavy hammers, and other weapons of choice.

Intimidation is the tool of choice found in the lower levels of the education system, where individuality is wiped out, in favour of having all becoming passive guinea pigs, for the latest education fad, education cuts or doctrinairism , such as students marching to the same mantra, where mediocrity of teachers is glorified. 

In the upper levels, we have people such as yourself Doug, screaming out that they are the only ones that process the knowledge to interpret surveys, and other research materials. It is where we see the ‘Dougs of the world’, having myopic vision, beaming in on what fits best to serve their self-interests, in maintaining the power structure of the education system.

It would not do, to have people questioned the surveys, the methodology and the conclusions. There is inherent weaknesses in all types of surveys, polls and it is here where state-run institutions take advantage of the inherent weaknesses. Taking advantage, by not controlling the variables that heavily impact the responses. That would not do either, because the results may not be what you want to here.

“Believe what you want but don’t let those pesky polls and elections get in the way. The overwhelming majority of Ontarians do not agree with the prevailing opinion on the site. That is just a plain old fact.”

Than why are you on this site, among others?  I took the time yesterday, reviewing your site, and also the OSSTF site. I am not impress. As for the OSSTF site, it is a typical union site, where only the positive is emphasized, when it comes to education. Otherwise, it is only the negative that is emphasized on the things that impact high school teachers. I find it highly amusing, but it is par for the course, how parents are welcome, but you certainly do not want their comments on education. The dogma and ideology that is riddled through the sites, is a testimony for practices within the theory of propaganda.

Say it often enough, the people will think of it as the truth, or general practice. It is a funny thing, Doug, it has been my observations that there is a disconnect between the users and the various arms of the education system. The disconnect, is the mantra that education issues are divided along political ideologies and dogma.
From my own observations and experience, I have found the opposite, that people are basing their decisions on other things, and not where they fall on the political spectrum.

There has been several studies conducted on this very question, when it comes to social issues such as health and education. The general conclusions are people will do do what is best for them in their personal situation, without even considering the political ramifications of crossing their own ideology and dogma.

Decisions are based on facts, their own experiences, and knowledge, and far less on emotions. People like you Doug, are typical in the a public education structure at the higher levels, where you actively work, to appeal to the emotions, rather than thoughtful exploration based on their own knowledge, experiences and personal value system.

I have answer the question, that I posed to you. Now the next question, why bother, if we are no no threat at all?

You are no real threat to me I am retired and my pension is pretty secure. I have spent my entire life at the spot where politics meets education. Of course I love a good education-politics argument but I find conservative educators are jam-packed with misinformtion to begin with but can also be the useful tools of some very big forces I have outlined before (Bill Gates, Broad, Waltons, Fraser Institute, CD Howe, World Bank, Neo-Cons etc) who see the public education system as socialism from an ideological point of view but also see corporate privatization as a vast untapped pool of profiTS.Most people here but not all favour mom and pop little private schools but these guys want to replace the entire public education system with privatized vouchers but since that proved to be very unpopular they shifted to charter schools. The idea is to establish them first and then make them more and more private until you have the worst of all possible worlds, the private for profit school with the public subsidy. These same vultures want to make money from health in the same way. If we allow it we are total fools.

Does that finally answer the question about why am I here?

Than you must be doing flip turns at what the Toronto board is planning, in offering more choice. If that becomes a reality, than more choice and alternatives will be offer, that is more in keeping with the local communities and needs. As for vouchers, it would obviously force the private agendas within the education system, to become accountable.
Perhaps the Toronto Board and other boards see it coming, are acting now to have some say and the pace of change, rather than waiting for change to be force unto them.

Actually a large part of our healthcare is delivered by way of the private sector so the comparison is inappropriate.

Show me one text book, that was not authored by private employees of a publisher. Show me, where there is in-house work, where there no use of private consultants. Show me where at the tables of boards and ministries of education, that there in no one representing the interests of private companies. Show me where there is no use of private companies, who are in the business of educational assessments, and all current assessments are made in-house. Show me where,  school cafeterias are not taken over by a private company, to be operated. Show me a school board that does not operate under the rules of being incorporated - school board INC.
Semi-privatization of operations of a school system has already taken place, as it has with the operations of any health system.