“The best an intelligent government can do is incentivize the behaviour it wants - by tweaking tax policies…”  I am assuming that you are referring to a recent report on a 20% ‘fat tax’ on junk food and so on.  Seems an odd argument for a libertarian to make.  There is the stick of the Gulag and then there is the stick of excessive taxation.  The oppression of the extreme right is just as unpalatable as the oppression of the extreme left.  Why don’t we try some carrots instead?

In response to your broader question about the legitimacy of governments trying to legislate behaviour - the short answer is yes.  Our tax dollars pay for our health care system - so we are paying for all those obese people.  Have you any idea of the real cost of treating head injuries?  (hence bicycle helmets), How about the cost of treating people who have been exposed to dangerous chemicals?  (pesticides)

Let’s take your argument to its logical conclusion - you don’t want the government regulating people’s behaviour - let’s say that one of my favourite pastimes is drinking and driving.  I go out and kill your son in a car accident - do you still think that the government has no right to legislate my behaviour?

I’m just answerin’

Actually going out drinking and driving poses an immediate threat to the health and safety of other citizens.  Certainly the government has the right, and responsibilty, to deal with you.

That’s hardly in the same category as childhood obesity which is a function of long-term and ongoing behaviour on the part of kids and their families.

First we let government take responsibility for educating our children. Then we let government take responsibility for our medical services. That justified laws to prevent us from harming ourselves, like bike helmets and healthy lunches. Thank goodness the government is taking over as our parents - it seems we don’t want to be responsible for anything. What time should we go to bed, Nanny?[removed]void(0);

Actually, I’m mostly happy with the decision of the government to regulate cafeterias to no longer sell junk food and pop.

The unintended consequences that the kids continue to eat junk food and just buy if from somewhere else are due to parental choices made starting when children were very young.

Personally I consider feeding children, especially children younger than 10 fast food and pop 4-6 times a week a form of abuse. I also think it should have consequences. Paying higher tax or paying healh care insurance supplements would be great if there was a way to enforce such measures in a financially effective way!
How many times have you seen toddlers in a fast food place or at a highway stop barely balancing on their feet while they hold with both hands a cup of cola 500ml, or bigger? 500ml of cola for a toddler who weigh what, not even 45 lb?
And then we wonder why they have diabetes in their 20s and I have to pay for their care and feel pity for their parents?

Of course if a child starts going to McDonalds and eat fries and pop when they are 3 or 4 years old as a reward or a nice treat and pizza is ordered at home once a week, the tast of fast food the only taste of food that they are used to!
Very few people, let aside children are going to change behavior that has been ingrained for 5 to 10 years!

So either the goverment has to have the right to impose some regulations or even better things have to be setup in such a way so that people feel the effects of the bad choices that they make!

If you don’t take reasonable care of your child because fast food is easy and cheap you should also feel some of the consequences.

I would definitely support high taxes for fast food so that it is no longer a cheap way to feed your kids when you cannot or you don’t want to prepare food at home. The same high taxes should apply to the differnent types of fast food and junk food sold in grocery stores.

Apparently the Toronto DSB is now considering closing some cafeterias because they’re not making enough to cover costs,  seemingly because junk food is the big seller…

Remember the Jamie Oliver series on school meals in England?  He got enormous pushback from all over the place; kids, parents, school officials, etc.

I suspect the issue of improving the eating habits of kids, via school or elsewhere, will be a long and difficult road.  On the other hand there was a time when the same could be said of smoking…

Has anyone considered the price of food at the school cafeterias versus the prices outside of the school?

Just wondering….and than their is the complaint of small food servings

The third complaint nobody consulted the students of the school, on what they like to eat.

Why not ask the students, and than shape the meals even if it is a cheese hamburger, into a tasty, healthy meal, as some the students have explained in the numerous articles since the healthy food initiative.

Tasty food, at low prices and increase the serving size especially with teenagers, healthy food becomes the new norm.

At our local school cafeteria, a breakfast sandwich that mimics the taste of the MacDonalds breakfast sandwiches, using real cheddar cheese, whole wheat bread, for the price of $2.75 cents. The school cafeteria sells about 150 sandwiches each day, out of a school population of 200 students or so. Also another big hit is fresh whole fruit, selling for well under $1.00 for each fruit, and the apples are nicely polished. And about once a month or so, depending on holidays, and other days of closures,  the fresh food is deeply discounted, and that is when every student shows up to take advantage. The breakfast sandwiches are made in advance, since they are only serve during the 15 minute morning break, and all other meals, sandwiches are made fresh, that prevents and limits food spoilage. A meal at lunch, including beverage of juice or water, can be had for $5.00, and some meals have a bonus of a dessert. Few if any students are leaving the school, in search of food and drinks.And the only time the students are seen on the streets in our small community, one can quickly conclude the school cafeteria is close. Everyone is happy..the school is making money…the food company is making money….and the students are happy and contented, that they no longer have to take the 10 minute walk to the local eateries, eat on the run, and to be on time for the afternoon session. Around my parts, being late is not well tolerated by the school staff. 

I really think the problem is, that schools who do received a cut from the profits, became a bit too greedy, and now they are paying a price for it, when students are not considered in the process. .

Nancy, to address your points:

1) “Has anyone considered the price of food at the school cafeterias versus the prices outside of the school?”  Yes

2)  “...  their is the complaint of small food servings”  Healthy food is more expensive than cheap fast food.

3) “The third complaint nobody consulted the students of the school, on what they like to eat.”  Nobody consulted the schools either.  You seem to have this fixation that schools set policy.  In Ontario they don’t.  Policy is set in the Ministry offices in Toronto.

4)  “Why not ask the students, and than shape the meals even if it is a cheese hamburger, into a tasty, healthy meal”  Cafeterias are.  I mentioned this before.

5)  “Tasty food, at low prices and increase the serving size especially with teenagers, healthy food becomes the new norm.”  Checked with other schools in our board.  They are losing about $30,000 this year on average.  Difficult to up the cost of raw materials, increase serving size AND turn a loss into a profit.  Some principals see the cafeteria as a service to the staff and students and are absorbing the cost into their budgets (ie:  no new music instruments. etc.) others see the cafeteria as a separate, for profit operation and are laying cafeteria staff off.

6)  “I really think the problem is, that schools who do received a cut from the profits, became a bit too greedy, and now they are paying a price for it, when students are not considered in the process. .”  Would only be true if schools set policy, but they don’t.  Talk to McGuinty.

To Wayne;s points -

Healthy food is hard to sell in Ontario, when the Ministry of education, plus the other departments and organizations set the food policies, as guidelines acting as regulations. Passing it down to the school boards, who seem to think that they are in charge of all things concerning schools, and therefore the individual schools cannot be responsible, let alone handle a simple contract between school and the company willing to supply the food.

I assume the principals do not have enough letters behind their name, unlike other provinces, including NL, that schools are the ones in charge of their cafeterias, the contracting of food services, within the guidelines of the education ministry, and school board.

In Ontario, the kids and the schools need the Nanny state dictating what foods are healthy, and what is suitable for their taste buds. Turkey pepperoni is a pale version to the Italian pepperoni that is tasty, but the big poultry guys, no doubt lobbied hard as other interested outside parties to ensure their brand of healthy food will be brought.

On the Ottawa school board - “The policy was announced in January 2010 and school boards must be in full compliance with the policy by September 1, 2011. The Ottawa-Carleton District School Board has begun its work associated with this provincial initiative.  Training and information sessions were held with elementary and secondary principals and school council chairs in May 2010. We are working very closely with Ottawa Public Health (OPH) and the Champlain District Cardiovascular Disease Prevention Network (CCPN) on the implementation of this policy in our schools and numerous information sessions have also been held through OPH. Our Purchasing Department and OPH are also working closely with our contracted cafeteria and external food service providers to assist with this transition in our schools. “
http://www.ocdsb.ca/par/food_n_beverage/Pages/default.aspx

It is all about profiting at the expense of the students and their pocketbooks, and at the expense of the schools. It is why healthy food meals, do cost more in Ontario, when ministry’s guidelines are treated as regulations, with no flexibility for the schools to cater to the students tastes.

Our local high school had been without cafeteria services for the last 10 years. The excuse handed out, over the years, the school could not find any cooks. New principal comes in the year 2010, a perfectly well equipped cafeteria and its space was being used for students who stayed for lunch, eating their brown bagged lunches?  At the same time, the healthy foods policies came into being, and with it, changes how foods are delivered to the schools and its students. Shortly after, an advertisement appeared in the local newspaper and other places, where the local school was asking for tenders for cafeteria food service. Quite the buzz in our community, and the yearly surveys starting in 2008, asking students what they like to eat, may not be a waste of money after all.

Chartwells landed the contract, as they did with many of the school boards in Ontario. And in the fall of 2011, the school cafeteria open, according to the taste buds of the students, following the guidelines of the ministry, without the special interest groups and their take on healthy food. Some would say pea soup would not be healthy, but it is served, along with the many other foods under the label of, ‘comfort foods’.  I am also sure that pea soup would not be one of the foods in the Ontario cafeterias, as I am sure butternut squash soup would not be on the menu of any NL’s school cafeterias.

Below, how profitable it has become and the various interests and agendas.

“. Its winning menu included an Ontario butternut squash soup and an entree of local cauliflower mash and herbed Ontario chicken. Gourmet Society 2 won $1,000 and a visit to a local farm. Its dish will be served in Peel District School Board cafeterias in the fall of 2011.”
http://www.alive.com/articles/view/23228/a_food_revolution_in_schools

So in Ontario, it must be the only province not to have schools to be in charge of their own cafeterias, and have the schools to become the foot soldiers to spread the messages of the many different agendas and special interests on healthy food. And for good measure, ensure the ‘Nanny’ state controls the adults and their messages.

The price of food, the small size servings, and the taste are the three topped reasons why school cafeterias are losing money in Ontario. Meanwhile, in other provinces, school cafeterias are not only making money, but are serving healthy food, according to the taste buds of their students.

Too many chefs spoiling the broth, thinking healthy food has to be fancy as the food at a four-starred restaurant, when our pocketbooks can only handled the two-starred restaurant food fare.

Nancy,

Some points you may want to ponder:

1)  The percentage of students wanting healthy meals right now are somewhere between 5 and 10% of the student population. Case in point:  one of our neighbouring schools started selling curried chicken (healthy) a few years ago.  They started making one pot/week.  They have managed to up the demand to 6 pots/week.  Great - but the problem is even 6 pots per week will not make up a $30,000 deficit.  How do I know?  They are in the same financial boat as our school that doesn’t serve curried chicken.  I asked the lady in charge if they had come up with other healthy recipes that the students liked/wanted.  Sure they did, but the more they sold of the other recipes - the less they sold of the chicken. They were appealing to the same small group of students, not attracting new ones.

2)  Students ARE telling us what they want - with their feet.  Whenever we sell healthy food, they go to MacD’s.  Whenever we have our ‘non-compliant’ days (when we sell burgers, fries, pop, and chocolate bars) they are lined up at the door and our cafeteria brings in about $1,500 in one day rather than the normal $500.

3)  You are ignoring parents like Europe who WANT healthy food for their children.  He is not alone.  I sat in on our Grade 8 parents’ night back in the winter.  When the topic of the new food policy came up - every voice raised was in favour - not one against.  Silent majority?  Doubt it - many voices were in favour.  (Surprised me given the highly conservative make up of our population)

In conclusion, I agree that there are success stories - the Ministry has even pointed to one or two (big whoop - one or two successes in thousands of schools).  By all accounts, success greatly depends on local factors unique to the particular school and are not reproducible elsewhere.  Success will take time and patience - but most principals are not willing to wait and are laying off staff or closing kitchens