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Society for Quality Education

New math for old

New math for old
October 20, 2012 by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) at 04:27 AM

Michael Zwaagstra had a fascinating op-ed piece in Halifax's Chronicle Herald on Oct. 3. In reporting on Nova Scotia's plan to adopt the Alberta math curriculum. Unfortunately, a while back Alberta fell into the hands of mathematical snake oil peddlars, and the province's math scores are plummeting. Already very low, Nova Scotia's math scores figure to drop even further once the new curriculum has been adopted. 

But this was not the most interesting part of Mr. Zwaagstra's piece, in which he described a talk given by one of the head snake oil peddlars, Marian Small. During the course of her presentation, Dr. Small emphasized that there were many ways to get the right answer and teachers should be open to many different techniques. But when Mr. Zwaagstra asked whether teachers should accept the standard algorithms, Dr. Small replied in the negative. And when other members of the audience followed up, Dr. Small shut down their questions and proceeded with her presentation. As Mr. Zwaagstra writes: "It was ironic that Dr. Small emphasized the importance of acknowledging the validity of other perspectives, but did exactly the opposite with her own presentation. She gave a one-sided lecture and refused to seriously dialogue with anyone who expressed an opposing view."

It is actually pretty hard for me to believe that educators are still suckering for these "new" approaches - after some 50 years of experience with their implementation and mountains of research validating standard algorithms. But apparently it is the case.

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It would seem that she is extensively published and widely travelled educator; she will will be appearing at the Ontario Association for Mathematics Education conference 2013 in Toronto along with Stephen Lewis and Annie Kidder. (and several others, math prof from OISE etc)

They are looking for sponsors and exhibitors.  wink

On this web-site there is quite a bit of video material of her giving presentations. The first one I looked at had very poor visual and sound quality, so that it was hard to get a sense of what she was saying; and it was “jump” edited.

http://www.edugains.ca/newsite/math2/videocliplibdifinstrmariansmall.html

Posted by Charles Tysoe on 10/20 at 07:12 AM

I tried to do a search on Dr. Marian Small’s educational background, and there’s nothing.  Can someone as lost about proper math instruction as she is really hold a doctorate in mathematics?  Don’t people who are spending tax dollars do a background search of a person before jumping on their band wagon?  Has anyone read the texts?  Lastly, if educrats, who are buying into this programme of instruction, posses any common sense, wouldn’t they understand that children need solid foundations in any subject matter before they go on?
I’m beginning to think that all government-run institutions are grossly mismanaged and should be dismantled, because over time they’ve become self-serving and completely run by public sector unions.

Posted by Bev on 10/20 at 07:26 AM

Small, represents the worse, and yet represents what is so wrong with the math curriculum and instruction.

Short bio of Dr. Small - “Marian Small is the former Dean of Education at the University of New Brunswick. She has been a professor of mathematics education for many years and is a regular speaker on K-12 mathematics throughout Canada and the US.”
http://www.nelson.com/gains/gains/drsmall.html

And her influence, that would certainly keep all students except for a few, never becoming proficient in reading. The main victims will be the children who struggle in math learning early on.

“Dr. Marian Small conducted research across Canada to collect data about how elementary students learn mathematics. The research was conducted between 2002 and 2004 in seven provinces with 12,000 students from kindergarten to grade 7. The data collected was the foundation for the developmental maps published under the name of PRIME (Professional Resources and Instruction for Math Educators).  PRIME is a Canadian research-based professional learning initiative designed to assist teachers, administrators and district personnel to improve elementary school
mathematics instruction and learning. Developmental maps were created for the five strands….. The maps also reflect the curriculum
that is taught in elementary schools across Canada.”
http://www.nelson.com/leapsandbounds/documents/LBResearchSynopsis.pdf

No one has to wonder why, math achievement at the high school level, is so low, since Dr. Small has been around to ensure low achievement.

Apparently Leaps and Bounds is the intervention help for students. If it is intervention, I eat my hat. And far from helping students who struggle in math, it keeps the struggling students from understanding.

In the last link - Check out the samples of word problems. Poorly worded, will amount to confusion and frustration on the part of the struggling math student. Or check on the repeating patterns example on page 6. Big problems for LD students, and as I suspect other struggling students who do not have any identified learning issues.

1,2,1,2,1.2 - represents a spacing problem, among other things. I taught my youngest child the one strategy that is not an approved, the use of brackets, to detect the patterns in a line sequence. Of course, there is a bit more to it, but under the new math gurus, it is considered wrong for a number of reasons. I taught my child to think and do math using numbers, not pictures of happy faces, and using the mathematical symbols from the get go. Such as the use of brackets to sort out patterns, and it sure comes in handy, doing calculus and trig work. To which I noted was apparent in my 17 years old Grade 12 advance math unit test. Prevents the dyslexic mistakes, but than Dr. Small seems to know so much, by cherry picking the LD research to suit her agendas and ideology.

On page 7 - “?Students with learning disabilities and special needs are predominantly visual
learners and benefit when materials are designed to respond to their preferred learning style.? (DeVincentis, p. 5) In Leaps and Bounds, there is a variety of visual representations used to help students ?see?, understand, and remember
the math.”

An example on page 7, under the heading of PATTERNS AND ALGEBRA

18 + ___ =  23

Taught my child to do it this way -  X = 23 - 18
                                  X = 5

One way only, and very good practice to think in algebra terms, and in relation to the rules and math laws that are never expressed explicitly in the present math curriculum. Of course, one will never see the above method in a math textbook, unless one is looking at a math text book, published in the 1970s.

Dr. Small and her ilk has all kinds of reasons why math is just hard for students to grasp. It would be, considering the curriculum and the way it is taught. It would be a virtual guarantee that my child would be sitting in some high school basic math class, struggling to understand squared numbers, fractions, and basic algebra using calculators. Once I taught my child, although not an easy task, considering the damage that I had to undo, before actual progress could be made in achievement .

But alas, Dr. Small and her ilk will dismissed me, because I am a parent and yikes no mathematical degree behind me or even a B.Ed.  Dismissed my child’s high achievement status in math, as a fluke or worse yet, claim she is only memorizing formulas and algorithms.

I am in agreement with Michael Zwaagstra and my child is the proof. “If the Nova Scotia government is serious about improving math instruction, it needs to move away from a nebulous, feel-good curriculum and adopt a rigorous curriculum that emphasizes the necessary knowledge and skills.

Until then, we can expect math education to get worse in Nova Scotia”

For that matter, the rest of Canada…........

Posted by Nancy on 10/20 at 10:11 AM

?Best Practices? Under Attack

This is something that has been bothering me for a l-o-n-g time.  I just couldn?t put my finger on my nagging discomfort when I heard people, mostly left-wingers, complain about ?best practices?.  That they shouldn?t be ?imposed?.  It was somehow ?unprofessional? and ?robbed? them of autonomy, discretion . . .

We had a Dean of Education at one of our universities (gone on to another country) who wrote and riled against ?best practices? and even had a play produced on the topic.  I should find that information from so long ago.  But, the interesting thing is, when I started to question this, his material ?disappeared? off the Internet.

Then, at a BC Teachers? Federation convention a speech was made against ?best practices?.  That teachers should be trusted to use their judgment . . .

Today, I heard more clearly than ever that this is a polarizing issue.  There is a left and right to all this. 

Basically, when it comes down to the opportunity to choose ? ?best practices? loses out when self-interest, government monopoly, public service jobs, convenience for ?professionals? is pushed forward.  Thus labor peace, and business as usual.

I will provide more information when I have a chance to digest and transcribe this ?Eureka? finding.  [*** grandchildren clamoring ...]

If others know why ?best practices? are being challenged, and where, we should hear about this.

Meanwhile, it?s just more of BLOBism!

See my comment to the Vancouver Sun blog about the f-a-n-t-a-s-t-i-c proposal for a ten-year teacher union contract.

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/10/17/premier-christy-clark-calls-for-labour-peace-with-teachers/

Posted by Tunya Audain on 10/20 at 10:19 AM

So, again, Dr. Small does not post her educational background, so it makes me suspect that her doctorate is in another discipline; yet board after board in many provinces is buying into her gibberish? 
In my opinion, she’s been at the trough funded by taxpayers long enough to know that there’s easy money to be made at the tax payers’ expense, and worse, at children’s expense.

Posted by Bev on 10/20 at 12:40 PM

Bev, got the information - guess what no undergraduate degree in mathematics. That said, I probably could do circles around her so call proficiency, but I have a 17 year old that would take her to task on the many failings of the math curriculum and Small’s influence. Her head would be hanging in shame, when my 17 year old would be finished with her.

Under EX-OFFICIO MEMBERS

Dean of Education: M. Small, BA, MA, EdD
https://eservices.unb.ca/calendar/archived_calendars/2005-2006/People_UNB_2005-2006.pdf

As I suspected, but Bev did point out one thing, and that is, it is very difficult to track down the education degrees of education faculties.

Who would even picked up the series of math textbooks and math materials authored by people who do not have a mathematics degree among their education degrees. Small, in my eyes is doing a real disservice to students who struggled in math, and more so for her PRIME series, that does nothing but confuse students in their understanding and proficiency in numeracy. The schools would be better off, ordering home schooling material, rather than opting for expensive math material from an author who does not have a degree, nor the understanding why mathematics should not be taught her way.

So sorry, it really gets me rile up. Over 95 percent of students could be well-versed on mathematics up to algebra. After algebra, the students themselves can set their own agendas on what their intended aspirations are, to qualify for post-secondary studies. Pity it is not the case, and schools can looked forward to healthy populations in applied and basic math, and lower achievement rates at the board level. Nothing to brag about, but than again the spin be boasting on the mediocrity of students and the public education pedagogy, policies and practices that trumps everything, including solid math instruction to mastery.

Posted by Nancy on 10/20 at 01:14 PM

Thanks, Nancy for the info.  As I had said in a previous blog—surely if Dr. Small had a doctorate in mathematics, she wouldn’t even consider the nonsense posing as math curricula that she has authored.  Also, according to her website, she was faculty head of math at a teachers college!  Government is notorious for hiring unqualified people.  It’s like an exclusive club funded by hard-working taxpayers.  No wonder there’s a libertarian party whose platform is to dismantle the whole stinking mess!

Posted by Bev on 10/20 at 01:31 PM

Here is examples of Small’s One, Two, Three Infinity series that is presented by her at school boards. Making no comments, on what I considered junkie material but this is what passes for math training for teachers in the K to 12 education system.

For Junior high

http://www.onetwoinfinity.ca/presentations/NorthBay1.pdf

For Junior Elementary

http://www.onetwoinfinity.ca/presentations/BWF Junior.pdf

For Primary

http://www.onetwoinfinity.ca/presentations/BWF Primary.pdf

And the educators wonder why students developed a hatred for math.

Below a much better common sense approach, from the LD files. Mind you, none of this information is available on the public education sites nor communicated to the parents. Fractions and “Knowledge of fractions is such an integral part of the elementary school mathematics curriculum as it provides a foundation for learning measurement, ratio and proportion, percents, probability, and algebra in secondary school mathematics (Clarke, Roche, & Mitchell, 2008; Son, 2011). However, many students have difficulty developing conceptual understanding of fractions. Jones (2012) and Van de Walle, Karp, and Bay-Williams (2010) detail several reasons why fractions are difficult to understand:”
http://www.ldworldwide.org/educators/strategies-for-successful-learning/1083-toward-a-deeper-understanding-strategies-to-foster-multiple-meanings-of-fractions

For LD students more so, but the 1,2,3, Infinity series would definitely set the LD students from ever reaching mastery to graduate to applied math, much less academic math. I selected fractions, because there is perfect examples in the 1,2,3, Infinity series on fraction and other advanced arithmetic concepts on how mathematics should never be instructed. If one followed the handy LD guide, on fractions - there be no problem for mastery and deep understanding of fractions.

But if you still don’t believe me, check out Small’s work dealing with proportion.Is there any wonder, why grade 12 graduates standing at the cashier counter, don’t know how to do discounts, even the simple kind of 10 percent off in their head, and for some don’t truly understand the concept behind proportion? It truly shows that Small has no conceptual understanding with all her degrees in the arts and education.

I can’t wait for my 17 year old to returned home tomorrow, and see what she thinks about the 1,2,3 Infinity series. I am hoping to convince her to write a short concise letter, on how wrong Small is, and I will add the last paragraph, informing Small, what my 17 would not admit, where she was at the end of grade 3 - the lowest achiever in math. It is something that my 17 year old will not easily admit, because she is so much enjoying where she is now in the top achieving status level in mathematics. Even my 17 year old, knows the best way to instruct mathematics is NOT the way of Small and her kind that amounts to education malpractice in my eyes.

Posted by Nancy on 10/20 at 02:15 PM

On the Ontario Association for Mathematics Education. Small is connected to it.

The resource page link

http://www.oame.on.ca/main/index1.php?code=grspecres&ph=12&sp=MAP4C

Grade 12 C Foundations for College Math (MAP 4C)
Introduction

On page 4 - “Literacy Strategies
Mathematics is the most difficult content area material to read because there are more concepts per word, per sentence, and per paragraph than in any other subject; the mixture of words, numerals, letters, symbols, and graphics requires the
reader to shift from one type of vocabulary to another.
Leading Math Success, Report of the Expert Panel for Mathematical Literacy Gr. 7 ? 12
Improved student achievement demands an emphasis on developing literacy competencies linked to mathematics learning. To consolidate understanding, learners need opportunities to share their understanding both in oral as well as written form.
Weakness in reading or writing skills provides barriers to success in problem solving. This resource explicitly embeds at least one literacy strategy in every lesson.”
http://www.oame.on.ca/main/files/Gr12-2007/MAP4C/MAP4C-intro.pdf

I must have been on the wrong track, when I sat down and taught my child to decipher a word problem, The how-tos, and how very important the small words of of, is and placement of words to determined the operations and calculations. I also taught to circle the number, draw a line through the extra vocabulary that don’t matter. One can reduced a long winded word problem to under 50 words or less that matter. Once taught, that use to be taught when I went to school, as well as when my oldest child went to school, but no more.

Will that be the next excuse hailing from the educators that mathematics is the hardest content area? No doubt, and gee whiz, I had my saying, a repetitive message to my youngest child. Math is easy, once you have mastered it step by step, and the how-tos. Deep understanding comes after to think in the language of mathematics, and not as it is now, math is thought of as a literacy skill to master. Math is not literacy, but the education gurus think math is just another form of literacy. No wonder the students who are the low achievers stay low achievers, unless someone from the outside comes to their rescue in the form of private tutoring, alternative private schooling, home schooling, home tutoring done by the parents, and last but not least, the web. Anyone for Khan Academy?

Posted by Nancy on 10/20 at 02:43 PM

Nancy, also please be sure to have your daughter mention in her letter that ‘Dr.’ Small is not qualified to write math curricula…  It’s important that these snake oil salesmen have a light shone on them in order to expose them for whom they really are—in my opinion they’re uncaring, self-serving money-grubbers.
good research, btw grin

Posted by Bev on 10/20 at 02:46 PM

I more or less followed the advice of a math professor at Memorial. A long list on the how-tos, and I bet I could locate the list written by my hand, since I am a paper pack rat, but not very organized. A failing I have.

The conversations that I shared with the math professor, what was stressed mastery, lots of practice and in the case of my LD child, more practice, and the most important piece of advice - teach the whole concept, at once and not just bits and pieces as it is done in the math curriculum. Ergo, full mastery was determined at two grade levels above. I was told often by the teachers, there is no need for my child to know the extra math content, since it was not part of the outcomes.

For LD students who struggled in math, the best way is to teach the whole concept at once, step by step. Certainly showed in her unit tests, where she was getting 80s, just like what the math professor had stated, if I followed her advice exactly as laid out in the list. She also predicted, by grade 10 she would be very accomplished in math. It was in grade 9 that one became a reality, and now in grade 12, so far so good in advance math, steady 100s, with the exception of one and the only unit test coming in at a 87 percent.

I never thought she be wearing the label as one of the top achievers in math, but she is wearing that one on the sleeve proudly. Two weeks ago, the teacher instructed everyone that they work must be done in fractions, and not in decimals. The only one out of the 19 students in the advance class that is well versed doing everything in fractions, was my kid. Could never figure out starting in the grade 6 math curriculum, why everything was taught in decimal form in their workings. I went the easier route, by showing only one method, by working with fractions instead of decimals. It is so much easier to change a fraction to a decimal number, at the end, if the problem asked for the answer to be in decimal form. All 18 of the students complain and howl over it, and the teacher quietly explain, its what will happen in post secondary and the real world. The second question, why can’t we used the calculators?  Calculators have been banned, and its no skin off my 17 year old, since it is only small numbers being used, and I did not allow calculator use for such small numbers. The latter, the math professor recommended it, to improve automatic recall and carving new cognitive pathways inside the brain of my dyslexic child.

Last week she was walking on cloud 9, tending to the tutoring needs of her follow classmates in advance math, calculus and physics. Now that I never envisioned when I started down the road of tutoring and re-teaching at home. Her helping the students who always did well in school, and the same students who used to call her dumb in school. Yikes, she is teaching the students the old methods of math, that has been discarded in the trash heap. And its a guarantee the methods will not be found in the current math curriculum and instruction in the 21st century.

I will be sure to tell Small, she is not qualified to write the math curriculum. I think my 17 year old would be a suitable replacement for the writing of the math curriculum from K to 6. She may not have a degree, but she was a victim of the dodgy math curriculum of the snake oil salesmen that dwell within the public education system. My 17 year old, would be ultimately qualified compared to Small and the other so-called experts without a mathematics degree.

Posted by Nancy on 10/20 at 04:14 PM

I just read your last post, Nancy, and it boggles my mind that kids taking calculus don’t understand fractions??  When my kids went to public school, the grade six curricula had children converting from fractions to decimals to percentages.  My son, while in grade three in Asia was multiplying fractions.  What are we paying for in Ontario?  Kids are not receiving an education, period, and teachers are whining about losing sick days??  They must be terribly incompetent and ill informed about what they should be doing during the school day, or they could care less.

Posted by Bev on 10/20 at 04:56 PM

I just know that those within the public education system, all have the attitude that they are the only ones that know what are the best things for children.

They don’t, but try telling them that, its like experiencing the dilemma of falling into a snake pit filled with garter snakes. It happened to me once, when I was five. That is falling into a snake pit. As a parent, it is that kind of feeling dealing and confronting the teachers, who have biases and misconceptions and more than likely stemming from the teacher training at the education faculties.

But I have high hopes for the year 2013, the public education system and those that work within might just have to be confronted with their failings, at all angles if the stars are lined up. There is open contempt, bordering on hatred by the educators for SQE. A sure sign, among many of the signs in the year 2012.  Another web site is the WISE math folks of math professors.

All I ever wanted was for my child to be proficient in the 3 Rs, and the rest I take care of. It turned out to be my mission for the last 12 years, to go after everything that is wrong with the public education system model. And it probably will be for a good many years after, and I can see myself walking into the grade 1 class of one of my grandchildren, reading the riot act to the grade 1 teacher, but this time so much more knowledgeable than in 2001. More than likely, my youngest is carrying the gene for dyslexic, and any children of hers will have a 50-50 chance of having dyslexic. Not present in my other children. But who knows, I probably be the grandma, spending a lot of time ensuring that my youngest child’s children will not go the way that I and my youngest child did.

By the way, one teacher sent a card a couple of years ago, to apologized. Just a simple I am sorry, seem sufficient, and right at that time. Now she can walk by me,  and say a friendly hello, and look me in the eyes. She could not do that before, and more so when my youngest was winning a science fairs and receiving other achievement awards. Too bad the teacher is retired, but I have a funny feeling she is doing her bit at the school, since she does volunteer to tutored reading. Apparently, through the grape vine, the retired teacher is doing a wonderful job in improving students’ reading, especially decoding words. It is what I gathered from the parents, and apparently the retired teacher is extremely interested in the children who are not very good word decoders. I find out in due time, when the graduation ceremonies come about in 2013. All the former teachers show up, and they know full well, that my kid would not be standing among the students with honour diplomas nor looking at a bright future, because for the large part they saw all my grand work as ‘pie in the sky’ and a wasted effort on my part. It be interesting conversations between me and the former teachers of the elementary school.

Do they care? I think that they do, but are caught in the trap, they might lose their jobs like the teacher in Alberta for giving out zeroes.  For not following the script. It is why I think, there might be a teacher revolt in the offerings of 2013. The kind of revolt that goes after the union brass, the education faculties and the school board staff, for working against the students interests and their futures.

Posted by Nancy on 10/20 at 07:27 PM

“It would seem that she is extensively published and widely travelled educator; she will will be appearing at the Ontario Association for Mathematics Education conference 2013 in Toronto along with Stephen Lewis and Annie Kidder. (and several others, math prof from OISE etc)”

What are Lewis’s and Kidder’s background in math exactly?

The only thing closely resembling math that I can tell it the common denominator of educational hypocrisy.

” She gave a one-sided lecture and refused to seriously dialogue with anyone who expressed an opposing view.” 

Ah, yes the story of how education plays out in Canada for the most part. Parents should be used to this tactic by now.

Posted by Chuck on 10/21 at 11:37 AM

Yes, Chuck, and it would be interesting to learn how many attending this OAME conference have even done a single math course at the university level!  We’re already pretty certain that along with Dr. Small, Kidder and Lewis most likely have never done anything but high school math.
What a travesty.

Posted by Bev on 10/21 at 03:53 PM

Decided to take a peek at this OAME conference.

It would appeared that the two guest speakers do not have a mathematics degree. I am not kidding. What I have observed, when information on the education backgrounds are hard to locate, nine times out of ten, the speakers do not have a mathematics background.

“Keynote Speaker: Doug Duff”

A paper he wrote in 2011 - and was his main theme on the speaking gigs. “? MATHEMATICS IMPROVEMENT
PROCESS: A PRINCIPAL?S PERSPECTIVE

http://www.oame.on.ca/main/files/gazettefiles/SelectedGazArt805.pdf

Learned some new edubabble for division. Feel sorry for the kids, and the math professor who had given me all that good advice, told me to keep it simple on terms. Reduced the meanings of the terms to their level. Why does the so-called experts in the public education system make it so difficult for kids when it comes to math?

“Concepts such as regrouping, skip counting, composing/decomposing of numbers, or the difference between the quotative and partitive
interpretations of division are both sophisticated and
challenging mathematically (Ma, 1999), and teachers benefited from collegial discussions about them.”

Had to look up quotative and partitive but I had no idea that division was sophisticated and challenging mathematically. It would be, considering what they have turned division into.

“If the number in each group is known, and you are trying to find the number of groups, then the problem is referred to as a quotative division problem. Quotative division may also be called measurement, or repeated subtraction. You are, in effect, counting or measuring the number of times you can subtract the divisor from the dividend. Long division (remember long division?!) uses this concept.

? If the number of groups is known, and you are trying to find the number in each group, then the problem is referred to as a partitive division problem. Partitive division may also be called equal groups, or sharing and distribution. You are, in effect, partitioning the dividend into the number of groups indicated by the divisor and then counting the number of items in each of the groups.”
http://www.learner.org/courses/learningmath/number/session4/part_a/division.html

There is a short video. Feel sorry for the teachers as well. The example that is shown, is what will confused most children. What an awful way of teaching division. I no longer have to wonder, why my child was at a grade 1 level at the end of grade 3 in math.

Moving on to the next guest speaker - Dr. Cathy Marks Krpan

Her education background - http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/Curriculum_Vitae/Cathy_Marks_Krpan_CV.pdf

“Professor Krpan has also completed research on the development of critical thinking through graphic organizers (such as concept maps and mind maps). She is currently investigating effective teaching strategies that assist English Language Learners in mathematics classsrooms. Other topics of interest include the development of student metacognition, effective assessment strategies, critical thinking models and student inquiry mathematics and science.”
http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/smt/Research_Interests.html?peopleid=534&tagid=1277480

The good professor without a mathematics degree, profits authoring math books. Yet Jump Math, is looked upon with a jaundice eye by the public education system, because the author does not have an education degree. The culture of the public education system, also plays a major role, that repeats the messages over and over again, that parents should not be teaching their children the methods of algorithms. My child began her love for math, when I taught her how to do it, without ever using the complicated problems found in any 2012 math curriculum, where one has to count dots in grade 4, and take 5 minutes to do. She did not mind all the drills, when 50 problems took 10 minutes or so. No dot counting, no box counting, no drawing pictures. If anything was used, was a number line. That too has been tossed out in the trash bin.

If only there was a few more 17 year olds at that meeting, telling their stories about being victims of the poor, shoddy and dodgy math curriculum and practices.

From what I have research, it sure looks like Ontario’s math curriculum and practices are under the influence and command of people holding a B.Ed. in their education degrees, but no undergraduate degree in mathematics. Bev, is probably correct, no mathematics course since high school. No high school calculus or trig under their belt either. Anybody that had taken high school calculus would know just how important to have a firm foundation in arithmetic and algebra.  I found that out in high school, and I needed to practice to firm up my foundation math skills. Besides that, I have a 17 year old, who thanks me every once in a while, and she is grateful that she is not sitting in the basic or applied math classes.

Posted by Nancy on 10/21 at 07:10 PM

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