To many people the wheel is the public system. A recent study of Washington charters showed a much highrr suspension and expulsion rate proving charters are not an apples to apples comparison, they are selective schools. See Education Next.

Is the no zero policy a better option Joe?

No, i never supported the no zero policy and neither did the unions.

Being highly selective on intake and then expelling all the misbehavers and low achievers makes it pretty easy to look good.

The above is an assumption/exaggeration, Joe.
btw, I’ve heard of the terrible behaviour at some of the state-run schools here in Ontario, so you must support the opposite end of the spectrum—taking absolutely no disciplinary measures whatsoever…

Wrong.

Bev,

“The above is an assumption/exaggeration”  -  No it’s not.  Here are stories and studies from DC, Chicago, New Orleans and so on:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/17278/should-we-just-let-dc-public-schools-expel-anyone/

http://www.policyinsider.org/2013/01/are-charter-schools-expelling-students-at-higher-rates-than-traditional-schools-.html

http://www.catalyst-chicago.org/news/2010/11/09/one-in-10-charter-school-students-transfers-out

http://www.researchonreforms.org/documents/ExpelUnwantedCharterStudents2.pdf

http://paa.nodegarden.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/CharterSchoolFacts2010-11.pdf

Please do some research rather than simply negating everything.

Fine—perhaps you’re right, but you both failed to address the utter mess in state-run schools.  Many of them sound like ‘h’ holes—drugs, sexual assaults and other forms of aggressive/bullying behavior, profanity, never mind all the other distractions.  In other words, no discipline, and a very bad place for children to feel safe, let along learn anything.

Those are sociatal problems and the problems of poverty -things that private schools dont have to deal with.

Bev,

” ... drugs, sexual assaults and other forms of aggressive/bullying behavior, profanity, never mind all the other distractions.”  Where would you have problem students go? “Are there no workhouses?”  (Smiley)  We attempt to educate every student that comes through our doors, not just the brightest and the best like the charter schools.

Put this fact together with the stats that show only about 1 in 10 charter schools do better than TPS’s - and you see just what a poor job the vast majority of charter schools do educating their students.

One syllable Pete(OSP),

Now back to Bill Gates study. It is intriguing to observe what one man can do if he applies his resources to a problem. Does he make mistakes? Absolutely, Mr Gates has committed a huge sin of commission. As apposed to OSP’s posse whose investment in answering the question stops at the agreement to define, the place of work, wages,  benefits and terms of the agreement. In OSP’s world, the goals to be accomplished are somebody else’s problem to define.

Jay Greene makes many fine points as he slashes away at the waste and project definition errors that were produced by this herculean effort. Inevitably with a mercuric fellow like Bill Gates, it is difficult to be a Sr. Foundation Executive who doesn’t agree with his boss especially when you are being paid a mid six figure salary for doing his bidding.  This is the way of the world just like it is the way amongst all salaried executives (OSP included) 

For me the fascinating thing is that Mr. Gates cares so much about public education to put himself, his foundation and his reputation on the line.  Ultimately, he gets the big double whip because his hired executives did what they had to do to try and save their butts and the boss’s. Who knows how much weeping and gnashing of teeth went on by some of the ethically congruent when they didn’t report what they did wrong rather than the atta boys.

Ultimately the discussion orbits around the simple question: How big a silver bullet will school choice be in dealing with our educational needs?  From Mr. Gates’ hugely expensive study we learn just how hard it is to systematically, understand what is going on in the classroom; how difficult it is to derive what the fundamental drivers are that consistently predict outcomes in the broad public education space.  My bet, is that Mr. Gates knows this study didn’t deliver and he is not running away but will be back to try again.

Until the throwers of stones have even a small fraction of Mr. Gates skin in the game, I suggest they are babes in the woods. I propose this SQE blog post be the first element in a chain reaction leading to a call for a forum to frame a project or projects which would get things aimed and framed so that a meaningful result might be forthcoming. We could hope for an effect that would provide sufficient, quantitative insight that a repetitive model could be propagated.

Perhaps, a Canadian based, public symposium might be arranged that brought Mr. Gates and other public education spirited philanthropists together. The Centre for International Governance Innovation might have a role.  Instead of the Dragon’s Den, perhaps we get “Philanthropy Row”. Then folks might get an insight into how tough it is do good regardless of the money available. Possibly “Crowdsourcing” might be applied to solve some of these problems. 

At this point in history, there are many folks like Mr. Gates who have risen to the challenge and like all of us human beings, they have and will continue to make mistakes in their quest to accomplish these goals.  Perhaps, with the right forum, maybe Jay Greene can come, Ms. Dare, and all those who want to see something monumentally good done in public education, even OSP’s folks could pitch in, if they dared to enter discussion in a denizen of non dues paying donators. 

Diversity Of Ideas Needed For Education Reform Forum

I don’t know why Bill Gates is wedded to public schooling, that is, government schools, centrally controlled.  Right away I’m suspect that he’s not only philosophically certain but perhaps sees some economic or political benefit. (?)

Anyway, if there is to be a symposium with learned papers and presentations and panels, then the whole diverse field should be represented.  Which includes those people who believe pluralism should flourish, not just monopoly public systems.

Some of the best representatives on this position are people from the E G West Centre in England.  This is the descriptor in Google:

The E.G. West Centre is dedicated to generating knowledge and understanding about how markets and self-organizing systems work in education and which institutions and regulatory frameworks best allow open and inclusive education sectors to flourish. The Centre is dedicated to choice, competition, and entrepreneurship in education.

The Director is James Tooley, here being interviewed by John Stossel —  delightful.  He definitely should be invited.

http://www.cato.org/multimedia/video-highlights/james-tooley-discusses-private-education-poor-countries-fbns-stossel

Bill Gates should see this video, and maybe he would deploy his millions to better efforts than he has up to now.

Jay concludes - “There is no recipe for effective teaching because kids and their needs are too varied, teachers and their abilities are too varied, and the proper matching of student needs and teacher abilities can be accomplished in many different ways.  But this is just my suspicion.  I can’t blame the Gates Foundation for trying to discover the secret sauce of effective teaching, but I can blame them for refusing to admit that they failed to find it.  Even worse, I blame them for distorting, exaggerating, and spinning what they did find.”

Not very scientific, and that is following the scientific method to limited the distortion and bias when interpreting the data. However, as Frank has stated, until “the throwers of stones” clean up their act,  Jay has brought up a would be valid conclusion, that should be framed into a working hypothesis, To developed a working theory within the framework of the 21st century and its knowledge framework.

The throwers of stones, such as Wayne and Joe are entrenched with the ideologies and almost religious fervor of the 19th and early 20th century education philosophers and education theorists. Embedded in the 21st century, the highly selected cherry picking of 21st knowledge to firmly cement the political, pedagogical, and education philosophies of the 19th and early 20th century knowledge.

Bill Gates and others like him have made big expensive mistakes when faced with a public education system that has not changed its structure and operations, since the 19th century to the 21st century. Working with the public education system,  any good work will be watered down, molded into the image of the public education stakeholders within the education political, ideology and the 19th century bias thinking of the education philosophers.

Why is the Gates Foundation resistance to school choice? Not according to the Gates Foundation web site. http://www.gatesfoundation.org/college-ready-education/Pages/default.aspx

The first question at the top of the page, How do we make quality education a reality for all children? Near the bottom, under Innovation and Networks, Charter Networks and Schools.

One will get the impression, the Gates Foundation are spreading their money over a number of items across the education span. A finger in each piece of the pie. No wonder the education stakeholders, are throwing stones. Easy to do, in a public education system that is entrenched in 19th and early 20th century thinking, that thinks finger counting in grade 10, is okay just as the no-zero policies based on the foundation of Piaget with the shining sloppiness of 21st century public education gurus to create the illusion of modern pedagogy. Or the latest example coming from Ontario, the political ideology and indoctrination of students.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/education/article/1314016—teacher-protest-georgetown-parents-say-art-teacher-had-students-make-pro-union-posters

No wonder the billionaires have their fingers all over the place in the public education system, that doesn’t seem to give a damn about education quality and outcomes of students.

Perhaps a working hypothesis is in order, to begin a working theory to disprove or proved what are the secret ingredients, if any. But that would be much harder to do within a public education system, that still uses whole language reading instruction, even though the reading science has proven over and over again why whole language should not be used.

The working hypothesis not becoming a reality any time soon, choice is the only alternative. It is what the billionaires should focus their work on, and their monies on. The lower the student is on the social-economic ladder, the student are at higher risk for receiving lower education quality and negative education outcomes in the public education system of one-sized-fits-all model that must fit the political and ideologies of the education stakeholders.

Education quality becomes whatever the public education stakeholders according to their values and best interests.

Sorry, Joe and Wayne.  I don’t buy what you’re saying.  The strongest underlying message from staff in education nowadays is to maintain the comfortable status quo, regardless of how bad it can be for the students.  Well of course there is always an exception:  when teachers objected to McGuinty’s easing up on academics when he was trying to lower the drop-out rate of Ontario students.  Kudos to teachers for that… 
By spending so much of your time constantly trying to debunk any sign of competition, teachers make me suspicious.  You know:  ‘The lady doth protest too much.’.

There are certain areas of human activity that do not thrive on competition but work much better with the opposite of competition-cooperation. Education, health, the environment are among these areas. The laws of business simply do not apply.

Yes, I’ve heard that song sung many times, and it goes:  ‘we’re different from the rest of the world, and the laws of nature simply don’t apply to US’.

The laws of business are not laws of nature. That is where you go wrong.