The real option, already being done in many places is to keep the building in the public sector at all costs by filling the empty elementary space with the new ECE program expanded rapidly and fill the empty secondary space with rapidly expanded adult education. When there is still space, you move in other government social functions, welfare offices, service ontario offices, medical clinics with a tie it to the school, public health, expanded library services, public meeting spaces and the like.
As you say opportunity to make schools true community schools.

Malkin,

A good point, but unfortunately will not work in the current building usage formula climate.

When Mr. Harris (yes, I am bringing him up - his government changed the rules - and no, McGuinty has done nothing to change them, so he is equally at fault), created the new formulas, he based them on the square footage inside the envelope of the outer walls of the building - irrespective of the fact that it includes bathrooms, halls, offices and other non-instructional space.  Previously, the formulas were based on classroom space only.

Therefore, by law, boards must calculate building capacity on all space inside the building.  they divide that by the number of square meters/student to arrive at building capacity.  Once that capacity falls below a certain percentage, the Ministry will demand that the board do something - close the school, build a new, smaller one, and so on.  It doesn’t matter in the formula if the unused space could be leased to make money.

Until such time as the formula is fundamentally changed, boards would be foolhardy to be creative.  Unless you want more provincial takeover of board operations, and then the Ministry could directly implement its wonderful new initiatives in the classroom.

Malkin/Wayne - excellent post and comment. It’s exactly spot-on.

If one were to look around the province at other boards they would find that those boards have actually out done themselves on taking action and closures.

The TDSB is still not getting their job done. Perhaps it’s because they’re listening to the Dean/Doug’s who hang on like pilot fish and drag that board down.

Is it any coincidence that one of the fastest growing schools in Ontario…maybe even Canada isn’t a public one? It’s Virtual High School (linked via SQE) where enrolment numbers 3500 this year. Next up…they’re moving to elementary programs.

Choice is alive and well in Ontario.

Education is changing and it’s no longer necessary, thanks in large part to new technology that education needs to happen in a large facility.

We’re essentially working on an education model that’s so far outdated it’s not funny.

Typical that Ontario is the last one to learn this.

I think it’s time for Ontario to start developing Traditional School models as an addition to the choices available.

Great idea in theory, but do the math. There is a massive glut in vacant office/retail/industrial space available, Once you do the major refits that would be required to attract these types of clients it wouldn’t be very cost effective. Do you really think you will be able to convince a dentist to lease space at 3 times the amount per sq/ft as just down the street?
The big difference in a dentist and a public servant is that he/she is a business professional and will definitely be looking at the bottom line.

Doug if were doing such a great job at educating our students why would we need adult education space?

I cannot see it becoming a reality. Besides the funding formula Wayne pointed out, using the extra space for commercial purposes may not be ideal for a lot of enterprises and other government services. The traffic around the school/centre would bring in all kinds of people, that will bring worries about safety concerns for the children, as well as safety/health concerns for professionals like dentists or doctors. It would also increase the amount of available commercial space, creating gluts that Mark has expressed.

As expressed in the article; “?The other information that?s given out about that decline is that it?s 4,000 students a year, which is accurate, but there?s 550 schools, so it?s only eight students per school per year,? he said. ?It?s not a catastrophic decline in enrolment, it?s more of a normal cycle.?

Mr. Glover wants the board to revise its optimal school sizes, do a better job of communicating with parents and community members and put more pressure on the province to review its education funding formulas before he?ll consider closing more schools.

At the surface, issues like school closings can appear black and white, but they fade into shades of grey when you?re faced with difficult choices and a budget that demands compromise, said Howard Goodman, the trustee who was re-elected to represent Ward 8 (Eglinton-Lawrence).”

As Campbell, has pointed out, it is one way of looking at it 8 students per school. But should it not be look at the areas where they are losing the most students, and examine the possible causes , and the areas that they are gaining students?  Instead of using the ARCs with the objective of:
“- Value to the student
???? Value to the school board
???? Value to the community
???? Value to the local economy

First gather the external variables that impact student population. Variables such as real estate sales, rental rates, the number of senior citizens, and etc., and than compared the stats to the school in question.  I believe one can get a better grip on the value of the school, in relationship to the student, board, community and local economy.

Communities are constantly changing, values and culture are changing, impacting the heart of the school, and their policies. For places like Toronto, school policies must be more responsive to the changing variables of the community. Schools should be given the power and authority to become more responsive to the needs of the surrounding community, by anticipating trends ahead of time. For example, schools experiencing a large number of immigrants moving into the local area, should be able to plan ahead, without the bureaucracy of the larger education system, making demands that makes it that much more difficult to teach the immigrant children, english or french. 

What happens to schools that feel they need 3 or 4 specialized teachers above the formula, to address and target specific issues at the schools?  If the schools are not responding to the communities needs in a timely mandate, are these the schools slated for closure?

It is not a theory. There are schools like this all over the place including Ontario. Chris Spence, TDSB director says this is the direction that we should go as much as possible.

I think the dentist that locates in the school will scoop up all the students and their parents and have a great business. The city can stop paying rent to private landlords all over the place and consolodate in the schools, already public property. Rural schools all over Ontario will be saved, This of course slashes the busing budget.

Community schools are a reality. We just have to make them virtually compulsory.

Here is a PDF link, that will explain why Doug is so gun-ho on community schools.

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/.../publications/.../OSOS_Summer10_Preview.pdf

One school in Toronto, called the Humberwood Centre is an example of a community school centre.

http://humberwood.ca/default.aspx

“At the landmark $23M Humberwood Centre in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, four owners (the Toronto Catholic District School Board, the Toronto District School Board, Toronto Parks and Recreation Services and the Toronto Public Library Board) share one integrated, mixed-use facility as business partners. The City of Toronto contributed the land and three Ontario ministries provided capital funding from an inter-ministerial pool of funds. Even the design team was a joint venture between two architectural firms. The facility is a 212,300sf, three-storey building with two elementary schools, a public library, community centre, community hall and triple gymnasium. “

As for dentists, Doug, that is parents can afford to pay the dentists. Average payment for just a cleaning, x-rays, etc is at the $150 mark. I think a dentist would have to depend on outsiders to keep his dentist office going. Unless the provincial government decided to cover dentist procedures, as they do with most medical procedures under OHIP, it is highly doubtful that a dentist could make a go depending on the users of the school centre.

Yes that is an excellent example Nancy.

I support putting dentistry and drugs 100% under Medicare but we are not there yet. In the meantime there are programs for very poor kids to get dental care but not enough are aware of them. Put them right in the school and the awareness would rise.

Same with optometry.

Might be an interesting field trip for those living in Toronto - but has anyone looked up the address for the VIP Academy?  Is it in leased surplus space from the TDSB?  Would this perhaps be another aspect of Doug/Dean’s hypocrisy?

Interesting that Doug’s self-professed socialist roots are showing again.  How exactly would he force doctors, dentists, and optometrists to work out of a school?  We are a market, demand-driven economy. Maybe he’s been spending too much time in China - oops, didn’t mean to raise the ‘red scare’ issue again. 

1) No not in TDSB space

2) Nobody needs to be forced. Offer very cheap rent and make a deal to treat the school kids. Why does somebody need to be forced. Rent below market rates.

Doug, I do not think you have any idea of what Ontario offers for the low-income people. Since you cite dentist coverage for low-income. At $20,000 net income cut off, with public health running it, with no cap on services ( I am sure there is a devil in the details), I do not think the working poor are over joy, leaving many of their children not qualified for the program. At least in NL, all children under the age of 18, are covered for basic dentist services. Braces and other such work are not covered.

As for the purchased of eye glasses. Have you check the price of them lately?  If the Ontario government was not willing to raise the cap for dentist coverage, what makes you think they are willing to spend for free eye glasses.

Here is an idea, why not pushed for a poverty reduction program, a long the same lines as NL, where the income cut off is at 45,000, and there is another cut-off lower than the 45,000 where either they get free drugs, more benefits, etc, and after the lower cut-off, the higher income groups have to pay a small premium for drugs, and less benefits.  At the same time, put a hold on education expenditures. Probably do a lot for Ontario’s low-income group, putting more money in their pocket to pay the rent, or buy their children some clothing, or even have a nice roast for dinner, than the extra expenditures slated for this year in education.

Your solution of cheap rent will go over well by the board, who will be face upgrading the school facilities for the plumbing and wiring considerations of a modern dentist office. Let’s not forget, the environmental concerns of the building itself, plus parking allotment for the dentist’s patients.I wonder who is going to pay for that? The taxpayers?

Well, Doug,

At least you’re finally admitting it.  If old TDSB schools aren’t good enough for the VIP Academy, why should doctors and dentists have to put up with it?

Of course I support all that Nancy, I support putting dentistry, optometry and drugs 100% under medicare so nobody every gets a bill for health except their tax bill.

Didn’t bother to look at TDSB space, their policy is not to lease to private schools.

Thought as much Doug (Hence my first post in this thread, you might want to go back and read it).

So, now I would expect, given your strident, vociferous support of this idea, when TDSB policy changes and they begin leasing space the VIP Academy will be first in line to sign up.

Doug, you failed to answer my question. Most would agree in Canada that universal health care is a good policy. What you failed to answer, is why provinces all over the map when addressing poverty issues, that directly impacts the ability of the low-income person to access the social/health/education access points.  The systems in Canada, are not set up in such a way that access and the ability to pay fits in with the needs of the individual/family.

Take for example public education, where the ability of parents to choose schools, are hindered, and in some cases impossible to determined what will be best for our children, based on the available government information, the standardized curriculum, and the top-down structure. Within the school system, students must meet the criteria to access programs that are targeted for specific student populations. If not, the student is put into the regular student program, and all education is addressed by the general teachers based on the number of outcomes and curriculum coverage.

The public education system forces parents and their children to adapt to the public education system, rather than the public education system adapting to the students’ learning needs. The individual schools are the only part of the system that offers some variety, that is very dependent on the goals of the school and teacher quality, since the schools must stay within the standardized policies of the education ministries and boards.

Unlike social and health, people have the ability to choose to look after their concerns, and within public education, people do not have that kind of choice. The choice is blocked by the standardized programs and curriculum and the lack of information pertaining to other stats such as failure rates, quality of reading, writing and numeracy in the foundation skills, education achievement for SE children, and as well as the stats for under-achievers. The lack of information as well in the financial side of things. The ability to see what the individual school are directing their funding to.

It is this lack of information,  that forces parents to accept the school’s explanations, and their only choice is to accept the system as it is, or seek out private solutions, which is dependent on one’s pocketbook.

Community schools is one of the many solutions, and in particular to address communities where the ratio of low-income is high compared to other income levels. But it is not a solution for all communities, given the parameters and the needs of the communities differ in degrees. A community school, may addressed the problems of a child becoming ready to learned in grade 1, but the efforts are wasted, using curriculum and teaching methods that promote wider inequities across the board.  Using the example of my child, who was well prepared to enter school. and it was done using the health, social and early education resources, fitting the resources to the needs of my child. The efforts made, went to waste in grade 1, because of the standardization and the school’s inability to adapt to my child’s learning needs.

Lots of space for now Wayne but thanks for your concern.

Interesting in view of the Ford victory, that the TDSB actually shifted to the left and will be far more resistant to closings. Director wants community schools. One major trustee who supported closings defeated because of it and one who who favoured closings but tried to run for council defeated there and replaced by a trustee opposed to closings.

Shaping up to be a bitter fight over every school.

My advice to the TDSB trustees was only close schools in Liberal ridings (there are no Tories in Toronto) and run a heavy campaign making sure the negihbourhood knows that they are losing their school because the Liberal MPP will not fight for them against his/her government.

It’ll be interesting to watch the trustees fight closings, then explain why the schools are in such a poor physical condition because there’s no money to fix them.  You may not be aware that disposing of surplus space is a condition of receiving funding for new spaces.

The current crop will pay for the mismanagement of previous trustees.